Discussion: what are the 'cheap' carbon frames?

rolf_f

Monty Dog wrote:

As for the American car argument, having driven numerous American cars and been stupid enough to buy one once (a Chrysler) I can vouch for poor quality and agricultural engineering as I have the bills to prove it. I've also driven numerous US rental cars and in comparison to most European / Japanese brands, they are generally awful.

I'm with you here. I do quite like the fact that American cars don't try to look like espresso machines on the inside but they do seem a bit ropey. The Chrysler Avenger I hired had a festive display of warning lights on the dashboard when I returned it and the Dodge Charger a rumbling that suggested a wheelbearing already on the way out.

To be fair, the Ford F350 V8 pickup was rather better but even there I wasn't convinced about the message of indestructable durability it fed me on the lcd screen everytime I turned the ignition on. On the bright side, I did manage to just about average over 20 mpg during 8 days of hire

But then a lot of German cars have suffered ropey build quality in recent years as well. Ultimately, if reliability is your primary concern, you'd be mad not to buy Japanese.

Monty Dog

We're going a bit off-piste here, but generally the better US-built cars are made by the European/Japanese manufacturers who generally have a reputation to protect rather than relying on xenophobic customers. In terms of perceived quality, I haven't heard umurricans complaining about their iphones and ipads.

HasselHough

Sound like we're getting into a debate on "the machine that changed the world" a heavy going book but very interesting when it comes to American mass production (good old mr Ford) versus craft production, and lean manufacture.

Proff

Looking at their web site, I think my Focus carbon frame was precision made in Germany!

Volkwagen
AUDI
BMW
Porsche.

Fiat
Lancia
Alfa Romeo
Ferrari

Glad I bought German rather than Italian!!!

alihisgreat

Proff wrote:

Looking at their web site, I think my Focus carbon frame was precision made in Germany!

Volkwagen
AUDI
BMW
Porsche.

Fiat
Lancia
Alfa Romeo
Ferrari

Glad I bought German rather than Italian!!!

You take your VW and i will roll up in a Ferrari or Lambo then




or maybe i'll just drive the VW down to Italy for some cycling?

napoleond

Whichever bike I ride is Freaking Awesome and will be pedalled at 12 more watts than everyone else's.

andy46

To be honest I don't know where my bike would go on the OP's list. I like it and think it's a good bike, but it's the only carbon bike I've ridden.

At the bottom of the seat tube there is a union jack with the Forme logo which says "designed in the uk" but underneath the BB area it has a very small "made in Taiwan" sticker. I have read somewhere when I was doing some research on the brand before I bought it that Forme carbon frames are made in the same factory as Pinarello and Basso, and also the factory they use for painting is known to be one of the best over there.

I wouldn't say it was a cheap frame, I think Forme are onto a winner. For the same money I just couldn't get a carbon bike with the spec it has. The only thing I've changed is the seat post and saddle (and I'm getting some Ksyrium Elites today)

I'd say it's a good frame from a lesser known brand, I just hope in years from now the prices don't go up to the likes of Specialized, Trek etc as they become more well known.

petemadoc

I've got a carbon frame bought direct from China and it was definitely cheap! It cost about £380 delivered with a custom paint job, that clearly makes it cheap.

However I did some research before buying and it's the same frame as the Ribble Stealth and De Rosa R838 and comes from the same factory. Some people have claimed that the carbon or layup is different on all these frames but I just don't buy it. Why would a factory churn out a bunch of frames using the same mould/design but make them different. From what I can see the factory makes up bare carbon frames onto which a company specifies it's branding and paintjob. The price of the frame from then on is determined by the distribution channels and marketing budgets

eg, Ribble buy direct from China and sell to Joe public which is an efficient distribution chain IMO

eg2, De Rosa specify the same frame from China and sell the distribution rights in the UK to iride who then sell the frame to UK retail stores who then sell to Joe public. So along the way we have De Rosa, iride and the retailer all needing to make a profit . . . not quite so efficient.

With so many frames made in the far east I'd say it's pretty difficult to differentiate between them all. Are Trek, Spec and better than De Rosa, Merckx, Cube etc. . .. ? I doubt it.

Is an Colnago C59 a better frame? Yes it probably is and definitely more expensive. I'd love to own a C59 but it's simply not even in the realms of possibility. When a big birthday comes along I might look at some British hand made steel.

After riding a few carbon bikes I'd say there aren't really many bad ones about (although I appreciate there probably are one or two donkeys). How many people come on here and say "I bought this frame and it flexes like a noodle, I'm really not happy" ?

Back to the original question, what is the point of it? Just so you can buy the "right" frame so that some bike snob won't look down their nose at you.

FFS just ride

bigpikle

must be a wet bank holiday then - not enough people out doing something....

The entire Far East BAD vs Western GOOD debate is a total joke. There are soooo many dimensions to what leads to quality or inferior workmanship, but geography of the factory is only one of them, and may not be relevant in the slightest. I put it to you that some manufacturers make such a big deal of European made high-end frames because the marketing department tell them that's what the big spenders 'think' is a good thing and want to hear...

proto

You can basically group frame making brands into one of three groups

1) Manufacturers who carry out their own Research and Design, development, and manufacture in house.

2) Companies who carry out their own research and design work and development, but who choose to subcontract their manufacture to another company.

3) Companies that buy 'off the shelf' commercially available designs, then just have them painted/badged as their own. i.e. go to the Taipei Bicycle Fair (or somewhere in Italy), take a look at the many manufacturers and choose one you like the look of, decision based on price, design and quality of product and quality of supplier.

Which brand falls into which above group is not straightforward, LOOK for example make some of their expensive models in France but I suspect the cheap ones are 'subbed out' to someone in the far east. Likewise Parlee. There is lots of crossover. I have no inside knowledge, so really can only guess but I'd group brands as below. Feel free to point out my errors!

But in essence I'd put Giant, Merida, LOOK, Time, BMC, Parlee, Colnago (some), in group one.

I'd put Argon 18, Cervelo, Trek, Specialized, Scott, Wilier, Bianchi, Boardman and Ridley in the second group

In group three, you'd have Ribble, Moda, Planet X, Condor, Cube, Focus and all the other 'minor' brands. Simply put, any identical frame design you might find with more than one 'make's' decals/stickers on it.

None of this really matters, it's a bike frame, and there are not that many variables to tinker with. Design parameters are well established (angles/rakes/geometry etc) so pretty well anything you see will work, within reason

It's no different to the sitation thirty years ago when various trade shops (Holdsworth/Holdsworthy being one) were banging steel frames in big numbers and your local shop was getting them painted and stickered up as their own product.

A few years back Cadel Evans rode a Ridley TT bike in the Tour de France. It was identical to the Planet X Stealth frame I've got in my sitting room downstairs. It was made in China/Taiwan and would have come from group three above. Good enouth for Cadel, good enough for most of us.

rolf_f

proto wrote:

Which brand falls into which above group is not straightforward, LOOK for example make some of their expensive models in France but I suspect the cheap ones are 'subbed out' to someone in the far east. Likewise Parlee. There is lots of crossover. I have no inside knowledge, so really can only guess but I'd group brands as below. Feel free to point out my errors!

My understanding of Look is that pretty much all of their standard range is now made in their own factory in Tunisia (as an ex French colony that makes sense) - but it is truly their own facility just as it would be if it was in France. The main exception is the 566 which I think is made in the Far East. But that too is a Look frame through and through in design terms. I'd imagine the alloy track frame 464 is Far Eastern as well. And there isn't really such a thing as a cheap Look frame!

proto

Yep, I know LOOKs are expensive. Recently swapped my 585 for a 586. Fabulous bike!

maddog 2

good post proto

robbo2011

Bigpikle wrote:

must be a wet bank holiday then - not enough people out doing something....

The entire Far East BAD vs Western GOOD debate is a total joke. There are soooo many dimensions to what leads to quality or inferior workmanship, but geography of the factory is only one of them, and may not be relevant in the slightest. I put it to you that some manufacturers make such a big deal of European made high-end frames because the marketing department tell them that's what the big spenders 'think' is a good thing and want to hear...

In Switzerland, BMC have a Swiss assembly option on some of their top bikes which means that a Swiss guy at BMC HQ will put them together rather than it being done at their sub contractors abroad. So you get exactly the same bike as the standard bike, but it's a couple of thousand CHFs more expensive.

The Swiss really have no sense with money. That or they have too much of the stuff.