Elixir 3 - am I asking too much

Craigfssnow

Newbie question: are my brakes not as efficient as they should be?
I have a Rockrider 8.1 with elixir 3. I am new to mountain biking and having recovered from a cracked sternum when I was GBH'd by an oak tree, I am keen to get back out but the front brake on my new chariot is causing me some concern. Yes it brakes but it is somewhat gradual. When talking to friends, they suggest that I should feel like I am going over the handlebars if I merely touch the front brake, let alone pull it quite hard. Without being juvenile, I have to pull it very hard to make it work! I have worn the brakes in, it has had its six week after sale service. I am quite anal in keeping the brakes clean and uncontaminated. Am I asking too much of the brakes. I know it's not the most expensive bike/brake combination so if people shoot me down in flames for being a miser, fair enough but if this does sound abnormal at least I can justify to the wife that an upgrade will literally pay for itself (bless her). Thanks in anticipation

Greer_

Sounds like pads or disc may have become contaminated even if you were careful with them. Try cleaning the rotor and pads with white spirit or degreaser and then lightly sand the pads to give them a rough finish again. Does the lever feel spongy at all?

cooldad

Your friends are exaggerating. Maybe try their bikes and see how they feel. It should stop you easily though.

Craigfssnow

I've ordered some new pads. The fountain of knowledge at decathlon drained the fluid and said it should be sufficient for my needs. I am a big old unit so appreciate it will take more to stop than some of the waifs at work. Thanks for replying.

The Rookie

Craigfssnow wrote:

drained the fluid and said it should be sufficient for my needs.

Did he ACTUALLY say that, or that he had bled them? What you describe won't be fixed by bleeding.

Craigfssnow

The Beginner wrote:

Craigfssnow wrote:

drained the fluid and said it should be sufficient for my needs.

Did he ACTUALLY say that, or that he had bled them? What you describe won't be fixed by bleeding.

No I "schoolboy errored' and lost all my fluid so that's why it was going in to be fixed and hence the bleed. When I told him about the front brake, he actually said it was sufficient for my needs when I picked it up. That and the long lecture about not tinkering

The Rookie

Lost your fluid.....over the pads? if so that'll be your problem, new pads time!

YeehaaMcgee

Craigfssnow wrote:

am quite anal in keeping the brakes clean and uncontaminated.

That's probably the first problem. So many people over-concern themselves with "maintaining" their brakes that they end up messing them up.
Your brakes don't need any cleaning, and if you ever do clean them, a simple blast with a hosepipe is all they need.
Sure you have to be careful when spraying something near them, like GT40 or such. In that case, cover them with a sandwich bag whilst you're spraying. And that's it.
Leaving them alone lets them bed in, and doesn't mess around or contaminate them with anything. Mud and general crud will do no harm, whereas...

Greer_ wrote:

Sounds like pads or disc may have become contaminated even if you were careful with them. Try cleaning the rotor and pads with white spirit or degreaser

Is the second worst advice ever given. Unfortunately, it's shockingly common advice.
White spirit and literally any degreaser will all leave behind a film of residue, which will work against you. On car brakes it's not so much of an issue - they regularly reach high enough temperatures to burn off the residue, but this isn't the case with bicycles.
If you ever have any reason to clear your brake rotor, then the only thing to use is pure Isopropyl Alchohol - it evaporates completely, leaving no trace behind at all.

And, erm. The Guy in Decathlon? He should be castrated for being so dumb.

The Rookie

You can use white spirit, the residue it leaves can easily be removed with a piece of kitchen roll, but I only use WS with the disc OFF the wheel so I can clean it scrupulously (? spelling)......

Agree though, contamination is not an issue on car brakes where you can easily get them to a high enough temperature to burn the crud off, although when we fitted the 'pre-loved' brakes to the lads Spesh they were clearly conaminated so we degreased them in Petrol, then (after they dried) baked them in the oven on max for 30 mins then sanded them, they currently work well....how long it will last though........he's saving for new pads but it meant he could get them fitted straight away.

YeehaaMcgee

I have to wonder whether any of the people saying their brakes worked well after using degreases, white spirit, petrol, or anything else, have ever actually ridden a perfectly set up brake system.
"Good enough" may well be the case, but seriously, there's a better way.

Greer_

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

Greer_ wrote:

Sounds like pads or disc may have become contaminated even if you were careful with them. Try cleaning the rotor and pads with white spirit or degreaser

Is the second worst advice ever given. Unfortunately, it's shockingly common advice.
White spirit and literally any degreaser will all leave behind a film of residue, which will work against you. On car brakes it's not so much of an issue - they regularly reach high enough temperatures to burn off the residue, but this isn't the case with bicycles.
If you ever have any reason to clear your brake rotor, then the only thing to use is pure Isopropyl Alchohol - it evaporates completely, leaving no trace behind at all.

I've never seen someone advise against it but it makes sense, so lesson learnt! Would you just recommend new pads/disc if they do get contaminated?

YeehaaMcgee

Greer_ wrote:

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

Greer_ wrote:

Sounds like pads or disc may have become contaminated even if you were careful with them. Try cleaning the rotor and pads with white spirit or degreaser

Is the second worst advice ever given. Unfortunately, it's shockingly common advice.
White spirit and literally any degreaser will all leave behind a film of residue, which will work against you. On car brakes it's not so much of an issue - they regularly reach high enough temperatures to burn off the residue, but this isn't the case with bicycles.
If you ever have any reason to clear your brake rotor, then the only thing to use is pure Isopropyl Alchohol - it evaporates completely, leaving no trace behind at all.

I've never seen someone advise against it but it makes sense, so lesson learnt! Would you just recommend new pads/disc if they do get contaminated?

Discs are fine - it's so easy to clean them (if needed) with isopropyl alcohol and a clean jaycloth. Pads though - well, in my own experience, if they're contaminated, bin them.
Others have various views on "recovering" contaminated pads. But I'm still sceptical, since my idea of a performant brake might differ from theirs.

See here for more musings on cooking pads.
viewtopic.php?t=12836471&p=17446656

There was a sticky thread on here a while ago detailing one poster's supposed tried and true method for cleaning contaminated pads using an over, but I can't for the life of my find it.

Anyway, the short version of that is, personally, I'd clean discs with IPA, but I'd bin pads and get a new set.

Ghostt

Craigfssnow wrote:

I am a big old unit so appreciate it will take more to stop than some of the waifs at work.

In that case, I guess you're running the stock 160mm rotors? Easiest and cheapest way to increase power would be to bump up the rotor size.

The Rookie

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

I have to wonder whether any of the people saying their brakes worked well after using degreases, white spirit, petrol, or anything else, have ever actually ridden a perfectly set up brake system.

They were Tektro Auriga's (so not great brakes) and they worked as well as my Juicy 5's which are on new pads......so I'd say they were working as well as they would have done on new (bedded in) pads.......I bottle it when the back wheel comes off the ground.

Craigfssnow

Thanks everyone. New pads and even though not completely bedded in yet, I'm noticing a much better stop. Will do the back one next. I did feel a bit of a numpty looking at the state of the pads that came off. I also am mortified at my previous attempts to clean the pads, which involved taking the whole calliper off the frame. Unscrewing every screw and then getting to the pads. Needless to say I changed the pads with you tube in one hand and under ten mins. Oh well I am a learning beginner.

Thanks again

cooldad

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

Your brakes don't need any cleaning, and if you ever do clean them, a simple blast with a hosepipe is all they need.

This

supersonic

I wouldn't put white spirit anywhere near my brakes, leaves an oily residue. Any residue, even fingerprints can reduce effectiveness.

If you must clean pads and rotors, use pure alcohol.

brindlescoops

How heavy are you? I had tektro draco hydros on my first bike and tried different pads, brake cleaners, bleeding the brakes etc etc and always thought they were pants, verging on dangerous. Also if you are an ex biker you may also have an unreasonable expectation of brake performance. I am a big lump to stop, my current bike has SLX M666 brakes and they are like night and day compared to the other brakes.

jeannot18

Don't know if this will help, but I have got a Rockrider 8.1 and I find the brakes to be more than adequate. I am just over 12 stones (could the weight of the rider make a big difference?). Saying that I don't have anything else to compare it to as this was my first MTB.
JC

YeehaaMcgee

jeannot18 wrote:

could the weight of the rider make a big difference?

Yes, in fact. The rider is far and away the heaviest component of a mountain bike, and rider weight is responsible for practically all the load on the brake system.
Each stone is over 6 Kilograms of extra mass that the braking system has to bring to a stop. Much like a car full of luggage and passengers, the brake system on a bike becomes less effective with increased rider weight.