Lighter wheels,again!!!

mabbo

I'm thinking of upgrading my wheels. Currently on Mavic CXP22's. No idea what they weigh, but not light. Good commutors though.
Anyway, I was looking at getting something handbuilt for about £350 - £400. But that would need to include tyres and rear casette as well. I was looking at some Hope hubs, combined with Mavic open pro's. They were coming in on price and hand built, about £300 for a pair. But not much weight advantage apparently.

Now.........my LBS has offered me a pair of handbuilt wheels,built up in the shop,all guareented, titanium rims, ceramic bearings, weigh in at 1650 grams. Brand name Zero.........German engineering apparently. Anyone heard of these, or anything like? He says they are bomb proof and light ????

Any knowledge or views?????

ugo.santalucia

Bah... they better be bombproof, as with all those specs they're not that light... don't know how good titanium is as braking surface... of course in terms of strength, there is no comparison with aluminum alloy, Titanium is much better... ceramic bearings are an unnecessary luxury. How much do they want? It might be a very good deal.

I am building a much more conventional set for a friend who is doing the Raid Pyrenees... Open PRO, Novatec light hubs... they tip the scale at 1650 grams and come built at £ 240... they could go down to 1580 grams with revolution spokes at the front

rake

titanium may be a stronger material than aluminium alloy, but doesnt titanium work harden very quickly and loose its elasticity. could that cause rim cracks at the spoke holes soon.

Bobbinogs

What are you planning to use the new wheels for? If you have good commuters and want to commute...

The CXP22 rims are bombproof if a little heavy. What hubs are running with them? I run them with 105 hubs, which I built up for the winter, but saved a chunk of weight going to RS80s for summer/fancy rides.

rolf_f

rake wrote:

titanium may be a stronger material than aluminium alloy, but doesnt titanium work harden very quickly and loose its elasticity. could that cause rim cracks at the spoke holes soon.

Wouldn't that go counter to the presumption that Ti frames tend to last forever? I would guess that what makes it good for frames could make it good for rims too though then you would wonder why there aren't more Ti rims out there......

ugo.santalucia

Rolf F wrote:

rake wrote:

titanium may be a stronger material than aluminium alloy, but doesnt titanium work harden very quickly and loose its elasticity. could that cause rim cracks at the spoke holes soon.

Wouldn't that go counter to the presumption that Ti frames tend to last forever? I would guess that what makes it good for frames could make it good for rims too though then you would wonder why there aren't more Ti rims out there......

Expensive, heavier than aluminium... Not sure about braking performance... There is a minimum thickness as the rim need to wear, therefore a titanium rim is bound to be heavier than an equivalent alloy one. In frames one can use smaller tubes and achieve strength and modulus at a lower weight

MattC59

Rolf F wrote:

rake wrote:

titanium may be a stronger material than aluminium alloy, but doesnt titanium work harden very quickly and loose its elasticity. could that cause rim cracks at the spoke holes soon.

Wouldn't that go counter to the presumption that Ti frames tend to last forever? I would guess that what makes it good for frames could make it good for rims too though then you would wonder why there aren't more Ti rims out there......

Titanium doesn't work harden, it's extremely resistant to fatigue.

I guess it's not used for rims due to cost. The raw material is expensive and it's also difficult and expensive to work with. Extruding Ti is costly as it's hard and abrasive, it wears out the dies very quickly.

In theory, I suppose if you ignore the cost, it could be a good rim material. As it's hard and abrasive, it should provide a good braking surface, it would chew through brake blocks ! Again, in theory, you could use a thinner wall as it won't wear out as quickly as an aluminium braking surface. That said, you can't make the walls too thin, as you still need stuctural strength.

mabbo

My LBS is saying about £280 for the pair, before tyres and casette. That sounds a good price to me for a pair at 1650gms????

Gary D

Excuse my ignorance, but does anyone actually make Titanium rims?
I am really surprised, as it is a very expensive material and incredibly difficult to machine - particularly in the thin sections required for a wheel rim.
Just curious - thats all!
Gary.

MattC59

I'm somewhat sceptical about this. A bit of quick googling doesn't give any results for titanium rims for bikes, and £280 for handbuild wheels with ceramic bearings and Ti rims seems too good to be true. As is often the case, it probably isn't, but I'm happy to be proven wrong !

Are you sure that your LBS didn't mean Titanium nitride coating (although why they'd use this on a rim I don't know), or titanium skewers, or hardware, or as I suspect, the name of the rim was 'Titanium' ?

Back in 2008, Campag did a version of their Shamal wheels, called the titanium. It was titanium in colour only, but there was a version available with ceramic bearings. Are you sure that you're not being fobbed off with these, so that the shop can clear their old stock ? If so, they might not be a bad buy anyway at £280, as they were about £750 back in 2008. (assuming that they are the Campag Shamal Ultra Titaniums !)

I found this which may be of interest: http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-488694.html

mabbo

MattC59 wrote:

I'm somewhat sceptical about this. A bit of quick googling doesn't give any results for titanium rims for bikes, and £280 for handbuild wheels with ceramic bearings and Ti rims seems too good to be true. As is often the case, it probably isn't, but I'm happy to be proven wrong !

Are you sure that your LBS didn't mean Titanium nitride coating (although why they'd use this on a rim I don't know), or titanium skewers, or hardware, or as I suspect, the name of the rim was 'Titanium' ?

Back in 2008, Campag did a version of their Shamal wheels, called the titanium. It was titanium in colour only, but there was a version available with ceramic bearings. Are you sure that you're not being fobbed off with these, so that the shop can clear their old stock ? If so, they might not be a bad buy anyway at £280, as they were about £750 back in 2008. (assuming that they are the Campag Shamal Ultra Titaniums !)

I found this which may be of interest: http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-488694.html[/


It's exactly that sort of opinion I was looking for Matt59.
I posted the query because of my own sceptical viewpoint. All replies seem to indicate no knowledge of this stuff. I'll be paying the shop a visit this weekend, so I'll post the outcome next week.

]

racingcondor

Assuming my spreadsheet isn't completely wrong (it is old so the hub weights 110g/260g could be out) a pair of 28 spoke (2x front and rear) Open Pro's on Hope Pro3 hubs should weigh in at around 1650g including rim tape and they're known good hubs and good rims.

Compare that to completely unknown hubs and rims that may weigh 50g less and I'd take the Hope/Open Pro combo every time, especially given the possible problems of some 'experimental' engineering if the Ti rims aren't a misunderstanding.

I smell a wheelset that's been sat in the store room for too long.

napoleond

I want him to get the Ti rims. I wanna see them.

mabbo

Yep..................I get all of that, except he told me they were new in from Germany????
Anyway, I am as sceptical as anyone when it comes to spending my money. So, I'll pop in on Saturday and see exactly what he's talking about.
Thanks to all for opinions and links.

MattC59

The more I read, the more I'd steer clear !!

Most titanium bike parts tend to carry a price premium simply because it's titanium. If the wheelbuilder 'Zero' is doing a bit of experimental machine work, his financial outlay will be huge to make these, so this will be reflected in the price of the wheels.

If they're they're 'new from Germany' I'm going to place money on the fact that they're just named Titanium. Expecially for £280 !

MattC59

NapoleonD wrote:

I want him to get the Ti rims. I wanna see them.

Maybe they'll have decals ?

ugo.santalucia

Titanium rims, ceramic bearings and all for £ 280? Smells like a rat to me... each ceramic bearing costs at least 10 pounds if it's steel caged... there are 6 bearings in a wheelset...

Wirral_paul

mabbo wrote:

My LBS is saying about £280 for the pair, before tyres and casette. That sounds a good price to me for a pair at 1650gms????

Well Shimano RS80 C24's are about 1520g and for £299.99 from Planet-X. They are a very popular wheel and no apparent issues to date....... sounds like a better deal to me than an unknown make.

bobgfish

Open Pro's on Hope Pro3 hubs should weigh in at around 1650g including rim tape and they're known good hubs and good rims.

You can buy these pre built from hope for about £280 a set. They are closer to 1700grams a set. They are a good reliable set of wheels that are bombproof and fairly good for what they are.

http://www.hopetech.com/page.aspx?itemid=SPG92&tab=specification

mabbo

Queries resolved; main issue seems to be my hearing.
The wheels I am being offered are Xero lite XR200's. In a Titanium silver finish. Black spokes. Seem to be a lot sold in America, and they now seem to be getting good reviews here.
My LBS says these are the latest ones he can get, not old stock, and at £270 for the pair.

Any opinions?

cal_stewart

planet x model b's 1650g and only 120 quid