Alejandro Valverde - how good is he?

plectrum

Alejandro Valverde is currently 28/1 with SkyBet to wine outright le Tour de France, it seems from his early season performances that he is in good shape (regardless as to whether he is on drugs) but I'm uncertain that he has ever been at the pinnacle of road cycling even with his ProTour wins. I recall many a time when people were talking him up as a potential winner of le Tour and he always came unstuck somewhere during the 3 weeks.

From those with a greater knowledge, would you say he is a premier cyclist or just another capable member of the peleton?

Just to reclarify, I am totally disinterested in this thread breaking down to him being a drug cheat, dope is what it is and certainly out of the top ten last year and expected this year in le Tour, I presume 70%+ to be doped.

Is the course suited to him and what are his inherent weaknesses?

rick_chasey

He's very very good.

Classy is the best way to describe him.

Definitely more of a one-day racer than and out and out GTer. His time trialing is horrible, and he tends to suffer at the sharp end of the highest mountains.

Phenomenal hilly one day racer - the only guy who can rival Gilbert - he's a little smaller - hence he can hang in there when the road points up for 10+km.

He won the Vuelta, and has done well in that race before, but ultimately it's a second rate GT. He has won the Dauphine and can certainly do it in the week long races. But 3 weeks with two sets of high mountains?

Given the amount of TTing in the Tour this year and the lack of a lot of climbing (think Iain on here said it "may as well be in Norfolk") I can't see Valvarde doing well in the Tour GC wise.

Expect him to give Gilbert a run for his money in Belgium* though both in the Spring and Summer.

Wouldn't be surprised if the Valvarde factor is a significant factor in why Gilbert is focussing a lot more on a few specific objectives rather than racing all year round.

*Wallonia really..

stanislav

He certainly wont be winning todays tt at paris nice,well off the pace.

RichN95.

He can't climb like Schleck and Evans and he can't time trial like Wiggins or Evans. He's also prone to having one terrible day. However, he can easily outsprint every GC rider so he does well in races with time bonues, but the Tour's not one of those.

dave_1

Rick, Vuelta is only 2n rate in prestige..it has hard hilly route and is as hard to win as either of the two other GTs. I don't think it would be right to classify it as anything other than first rate

Rick Chasey wrote:

He's very very good.

Classy is the best way to describe him.

Definitely more of a one-day racer than and out and out GTer. His time trialing is horrible, and he tends to suffer at the sharp end of the highest mountains.

Phenomenal hilly one day racer - the only guy who can rival Gilbert - he's a little smaller - hence he can hang in there when the road points up for 10+km.

He won the Vuelta, and has done well in that race before, but ultimately it's a second rate GT. He has won the Dauphine and can certainly do it in the week long races. But 3 weeks with two sets of high mountains?

Given the amount of TTing in the Tour this year and the lack of a lot of climbing (think Iain on here said it "may as well be in Norfolk") I can't see Valvarde doing well in the Tour GC wise.

Expect him to give Gilbert a run for his money in Belgium* though both in the Spring and Summer.

Wouldn't be surprised if the Valvarde factor is a significant factor in why Gilbert is focussing a lot more on a few specific objectives rather than racing all year round.

*Wallonia really..

rick_chasey

Dave_1 wrote:

Rick, Vuelta is only 2n rate in prestige..it has hard hilly route and is as hard to win as either of the two other GTs. I don't think it would be right to classify it as anything other than first rate

For sure, but that affects the quality of the field right?

Either the starlist or the condition of the riders entering it.

dave_1

Rick Chasey wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

Rick, Vuelta is only 2n rate in prestige..it has hard hilly route and is as hard to win as either of the two other GTs. I don't think it would be right to classify it as anything other than first rate

For sure, but that affects the quality of the field right?

Either the starlist or the condition of the riders entering it.

The Vuelta has many good riders..and they pick it to race in for various reasons..prestige isn't the main consideration and doesn't affect the field too much..various other reasons why they go to Vuelta..are as follows-maybe aiming at worlds or have agreed to target Vuelta as other team leader in their team hogs TDF or Giro team leadership role or they are tired from Giro and aim at Vuelta and have summer off, or they had a bad TDF cause of injury/illness and aim at Vuelta as replacement target and test e.g. Evans came 3rd in the vuelta in 2009 and wiggo in 2011. It's so hilly it is a perfect test to show if you are a GC talent..how can it be 2nd rate when at least 3 other reasons rider target it? Basso was what..4th in giro 2009 and then 4th in Vuelta 2009...neither races are easy so 2nd rate is not how to describe it

richa

I was in Courchevel for Stage 10 of the 2005 Tour. He looked mighty impressive that day and ahead of propper climbers. The results:
1 Alejandro Valverde - 4h 50' 35"
2 Lance Armstrong - s.t."
3 Michael Rasmussen - 9"
4 Francisco Mancebo - 9"
5 Ivan Basso - 1'02"
6 Levi Leipheimer - 1'15"
7 Eddy Mazzoleni - 2'14"
8 Cadel Evans - 2'14"
9 Andreas Klöden - 2'14"
10 Andrey Kashechkin - 2'14

It was a long time ago. But if he can find some form, no reason why he cant match Evans, etc? (He is a couple of years younger)

rick_chasey

RichA wrote:

I was in Courchevel for Stage 10 of the 2005 Tour. He looked mighty impressive that day and ahead of propper climbers. The results:
1 Alejandro Valverde - 4h 50' 35"
2 Lance Armstrong - s.t."
3 Michael Rasmussen - 9"
4 Francisco Mancebo - 9"
5 Ivan Basso - 1'02"
6 Levi Leipheimer - 1'15"
7 Eddy Mazzoleni - 2'14"
8 Cadel Evans - 2'14"
9 Andreas Klöden - 2'14"
10 Andrey Kashechkin - 2'14

It was a long time ago. But if he can find some form, no reason why he cant match Evans, etc? (He is a couple of years younger)

Wasn't the general consensus regarding that particular performance was that he was perhaps more enhanced than he has been since?

dave_1

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichA wrote:

I was in Courchevel for Stage 10 of the 2005 Tour. He looked mighty impressive that day and ahead of propper climbers. The results:
1 Alejandro Valverde - 4h 50' 35"
2 Lance Armstrong - s.t."
3 Michael Rasmussen - 9"
4 Francisco Mancebo - 9"
5 Ivan Basso - 1'02"
6 Levi Leipheimer - 1'15"
7 Eddy Mazzoleni - 2'14"
8 Cadel Evans - 2'14"
9 Andreas Klöden - 2'14"
10 Andrey Kashechkin - 2'14

It was a long time ago. But if he can find some form, no reason why he cant match Evans, etc? (He is a couple of years younger)

Wasn't the general consensus regarding that particular performance was that he was perhaps more enhanced than he has been since?

Only 2 out of the 10 above are people I would assume could be clean at that time

RichN95.

Dave_1 wrote:

Only 2 out of the 10 above are people I would assume could be clean at that time

You can find two? That's one more than I'd want to bet on.

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

Only 2 out of the 10 above are people I would assume could be clean at that time

You can find two? That's one more than I'd want to bet on.

Agreed. I'm not sure who the second one might be.

rick_chasey

Dave_1 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichA wrote:

I was in Courchevel for Stage 10 of the 2005 Tour. He looked mighty impressive that day and ahead of propper climbers. The results:
1 Alejandro Valverde - 4h 50' 35"
2 Lance Armstrong - s.t."
3 Michael Rasmussen - 9"
4 Francisco Mancebo - 9"
5 Ivan Basso - 1'02"
6 Levi Leipheimer - 1'15"
7 Eddy Mazzoleni - 2'14"
8 Cadel Evans - 2'14"
9 Andreas Klöden - 2'14"
10 Andrey Kashechkin - 2'14

It was a long time ago. But if he can find some form, no reason why he cant match Evans, etc? (He is a couple of years younger)

Wasn't the general consensus regarding that particular performance was that he was perhaps more enhanced than he has been since?

Only 2 out of the 10 above are people I would assume could be clean at that time

I got the impression that if we take doping on a scale, he was more juiced then than later on - I might be wrong.

I just have hazy memories of something about Valvarde reining it in a bit in case it becomes too obvious.

As an aside, I also remember reading somewhere in Procycling magazine that they'd noticed a consensus that Valvarde post Puerto investigation (as opposed to ban) was quite clean.

Sorry pelctrum - it's difficult to look at Valvarde's performances in the past without looking at the reasons behind them.

Moomaloid

Classy is def the best way to describe him as a rider. I love to watch him race...

andyp

Why? He's a follower. He's got a better sprint than most other climbers so his tactics were always based around that, i.e. he'd stick with the strongest climbers then rinse them in the sprint.

That's not exciting to watch.

Murr X

A very, very talented and truly outstanding rider in his teenage years destined for greatness going by what a Spanish friend who frequently raced with him always told me. There was Valverde and everyone else, he was well know to be outstanding in his youth and even the younger Contador was never of nearly the same standard. I think this is probably the opinion of any of the guys who raced with him back then.

Murr X

RichN95.

andyp wrote:

Why? He's a follower. He's got a better sprint than most other climbers so his tactics were always based around that, i.e. he'd stick with the strongest climbers then rinse them in the sprint.

That's not exciting to watch.

I absolutely agree with that. He's somehow managed to get a reputation as an attacking rider, but I can't think of any time that he's initiated an attack.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

andyp wrote:

Why? He's a follower. He's got a better sprint than most other climbers so his tactics were always based around that, i.e. he'd stick with the strongest climbers then rinse them in the sprint.

That's not exciting to watch.

I absolutely agree with that. He's somehow managed to get a reputation as an attacking rider, but I can't think of any time that he's initiated an attack.

Not sure anyone here's said he's an attacking rider?

I rate him as good as Freire, albeit more consistent.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Not sure anyone here's said he's an attacking rider?

There's a world outside this forum, Rick.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Not sure anyone here's said he's an attacking rider?

There's a world outside this forum, Rick.

It's a scary place.

plectrum

thanks. seems still slightly divided with some feeling he could live with the crop this year in the mtns. Will the TTs really be the deciding factor as if so looks at least from today's PN that Wiggo has a fantastic chance.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

Only 2 out of the 10 above are people I would assume could be clean at that time

You can find two? That's one more than I'd want to bet on.

Agreed. I'm not sure who the second one might be.

I thought Leipheimer might just make it onto same list as Evans..LL is fairly consistent, races most of year. never a winner at GT level, plus been in the past his best category for 2 or 3 years now yet still appears in top 10, top 5 of big races. But am aware of 1 or two allegations going back some years..still reckon he could be cleaner than given credit for

iainf72

Dave_1 wrote:

I thought Leipheimer might just make it onto same list as Evans..LL is fairly consistent, races most of year. never a winner at GT level, plus been in the past his best category for 2 or 3 years now yet still appears in top 10, top 5 of big races. But am aware of 1 or two allegations going back some years..still reckon he could be cleaner than given credit for

2005 was the year the UCI warned his manager that LL's blood values were all over the place and asked him not to race him AFAIK

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

I thought Leipheimer might just make it onto same list as Evans..LL is fairly consistent, races most of year. never a winner at GT level, plus been in the past his best category for 2 or 3 years now yet still appears in top 10, top 5 of big races. But am aware of 1 or two allegations going back some years..still reckon he could be cleaner than given credit for

2005 was the year the UCI warned his manager that LL's blood values were all over the place and asked him not to race him AFAIK

fair enough..only 1 on the list then. I believe in Evans still

gabriel959

To me from that list no-one was clean. The reason people place Evans on the clean list is just trust.

Pross

RichN95 wrote:

andyp wrote:

Why? He's a follower. He's got a better sprint than most other climbers so his tactics were always based around that, i.e. he'd stick with the strongest climbers then rinse them in the sprint.

That's not exciting to watch.

I absolutely agree with that. He's somehow managed to get a reputation as an attacking rider, but I can't think of any time that he's initiated an attack.

Surely this cannot be true? He is on the FF approved list of True Champions TM and heavyweight riders.

frenchfighter

He is a two time Pro Tour winner amongst a raft of other top flight wins. It is safe to say he is among the best riders in the world over a long period.

andyp

And we all know the reason why now, don't we?

RichN95.

frenchfighter wrote:

He is a two time Pro Tour winner amongst a raft of other top flight wins. It is safe to say he is among the best riders in the world over a long period.

For several years Bernie Madoff was the toast of Wall Street. The champion dealer.

Then he wasn't.

EKIMIKE

Almost never wins solo. He simply has a great sprint. A climber who can sprint. Without it would he win so much? Who knows. Still a strong rider to make the cut to then have the chance to sprint for the victory - often out of small groups.

As a prolific small stage race winner, he benefits from the time bonuses on offer. Again, would he win so much without them? He doesn't make the rules though.

For comparison, Gilbert is another with a great sprint finish but Pip has also taken some notable solo victories - starting with Giro Di Lombardia when he dropped Scarponi and Classica San Sebastian 2011.

dougzz

gabriel959 wrote:

To me from that list no-one was clean. The reason people place Evans on the clean list is just trust.

Obviously, you can't really prove a negative can you.