OT: Case of Chris Tappin

FoldingJoe

Anybody seen this case regarding the extradition of Chris Tappin to the US?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/extradition-date-set-for-christopher-tappin-6984962.html

Only stumbled across it whilst on an old Golf forum I used to frequent (trying to sell some golf gear to fund bike related purchases ).

Seems like a rather extreme use of the 2003 treaty to me. Regardless of whether he is actually guilty of the crimes he has been accused of, the legal process that he has actually been engaged in (or distinct lack of) leaves me absolutely baffled.

What are people's thoughts?

FJ

bompington

Is Tappin a golfer then? :-)

bails87

Any idea what law he's broken? Is it an international arms embargo type thing, or a US law?

daviesee

FoldingJoe wrote:

What are people's thoughts?

FJ

Simple.
The U.S. thinks it rules the world and everybody has to toe the line.
The stupid thing is that we do.
I will respect the extradition process when the U.S. extradites a U.S. born citizen to another Country.

walkingbootweather

bails87 wrote:

Any idea what law he's broken? Is it an international arms embargo type thing, or a US law?

Think he may have replaced his ball incorrectly. Hang him I say.

FoldingJoe

His son is the deputy editor of the golf magazine Golf Monthly.

Apparently it is for the illegal export of controlled technologies, so I think it's a US law.

Greg T

bompington wrote:

Is Tappin a golfer then? :-)

That's enough to get sent down in my book.

W1

daviesee wrote:

FoldingJoe wrote:

What are people's thoughts?

FJ

Simple.
The U.S. thinks it rules the world and everybody has to toe the line.
The stupid thing is that we do.
I will respect the extradition process when the U.S. extradites a U.S. born citizen to another Country.

The whole thing is barkingly one-sided, yet our lot don't seem to be able to say "no".

FoldingJoe

W1 wrote:

daviesee wrote:

FoldingJoe wrote:

What are people's thoughts?

FJ

Simple.
The U.S. thinks it rules the world and everybody has to toe the line.
The stupid thing is that we do.
I will respect the extradition process when the U.S. extradites a U.S. born citizen to another Country.

The whole thing is barkingly one-sided, yet our lot don't seem to be able to say "no".

Apparently they have extradited 3 US citizens or dual nationals to our 28!

daviesee

FoldingJoe wrote:

Apparently they have extradited 3 US citizens or dual nationals to our 28!

I did a bit of digging around for an earlier thread.
Best I could come up with was that the 3 extradited from the U.S. were of dual nationality.
I don't believe that any U.S. born full citizen has been extradited to date.

bails87

FoldingJoe wrote:

His son is the deputy editor of the golf magazine Golf Monthly.

Apparently it is for the illegal export of controlled technologies, so I think it's a US law.

So he's a UK citizen, and he did something that's entirely legal in the UK and in Iran when he sold a UK product from the UK to Iran. And then the US pipes up and wants him tried and jailed over there?

How odd.

Can they start extraditing UK citizens for underage drinking when they're 19 too?

FoldingJoe

Well, according to the treaty the crime has to be seen as such in the UK and the US.

Basically he was paid, as an exporter, to export the batteries to an automotive business in the Netherlands, which is where he claims he thought the ultimate destination was, whereas the Americans seem to think that they were to be sold to the Iranians for some missiles.

What I find most bizzare, regardless of who was supposed to have done what, is that he was indicted, and found guilty, in the US and the first he knew about it was when the police came knocking on his door, so no right to a defence in the US, or the UK!!

Ben6899

I don't understand. How is the US involved?

Or am I being thick?

daviesee

Ben6899 wrote:

I don't understand. How is the US involved?

Or am I being thick?

Somebody did something they disagree with. End of. Not thick at all.

Ben6899

daviesee wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

I don't understand. How is the US involved?

Or am I being thick?

Somebody did something they disagree with. End of. Not thick at all.

It's worrying.

My housemate, an American girl who is well-balanced, kind-hearted, mild-mannered, bright, holding down a good job etc... happens to think Waterboarding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding) is perfectly okay if there's a chance the person might have something to tell.

I'm afraid it's how they're brought up.

rick_chasey

Ben6899 wrote:

daviesee wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

I don't understand. How is the US involved?

Or am I being thick?

Somebody did something they disagree with. End of. Not thick at all.

It's worrying.

My housemate, an American girl who is well-balanced, kind-hearted, mild-mannered, bright, holding down a good job etc... happens to think Waterboarding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding) is perfectly okay if there's a chance the person might have something to tell.

I'm afraid it's how they're brought up.

I remember having a long, and eventually acrimonious debate about that with an American (Vietnam vet as it turns out) and a few UK vets on cake stop about that.

I was absolutely in the minority, to my surprise.

notsoblue

Ben6899 wrote:

daviesee wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

I don't understand. How is the US involved?

Or am I being thick?

Somebody did something they disagree with. End of. Not thick at all.

It's worrying.

My housemate, an American girl who is well-balanced, kind-hearted, mild-mannered, bright, holding down a good job etc... happens to think Waterboarding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding) is perfectly okay if there's a chance the person might have something to tell.

I'm afraid it's how they're brought up.

Also, pepper spray is basically a food product.

Ben6899

notsoblue wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

daviesee wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

I don't understand. How is the US involved?

Or am I being thick?

Somebody did something they disagree with. End of. Not thick at all.

It's worrying.

My housemate, an American girl who is well-balanced, kind-hearted, mild-mannered, bright, holding down a good job etc... happens to think Waterboarding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding) is perfectly okay if there's a chance the person might have something to tell.

I'm afraid it's how they're brought up.

Also, pepper spray is basically a food product.

We need a "Like" button.

fourbytwo

I don't think things are as 'one sided' as was said. A US citizen called Robert Caldwell has already been convicted and sentenced to 20 months in prison back in June 2007 for his involvement in this transaction. Another person called Robert Gibson got two years and Chris Tappin has been regarded as a fugitive by the US Department of Justice since 9 November 2007. All this is according to a release published by them and available on the internet. So I don't see how this came as a big surprise to him. Maybe he thought he had got away with it?

According to other news reports also available on the internet Mr Tappin has given a couple of alternative 'explanations' as to who and what he thought the batteries in question were for!!
Mr Tappin has been claiming he was set up in a sting perpetrated by undecover ICE agents. Clearly the court in Texas who jailed the other two guys (who appear to be lower down the 'foodchain' than him in this case) didn't think this was the case.
I suppose when a country loses as many servicemen and suffers the numbers of maimed and wounded as the USA has in places like Iraq and Afghanistan they take things like this fairly seriously.
He has taken his case to every court in the land as well as the European Court of Human Rights and they have all denied him the right to avoid extradition. Are they all wrong?

thelawnet

daviesee wrote:

FoldingJoe wrote:

Apparently they have extradited 3 US citizens or dual nationals to our 28!

I did a bit of digging around for an earlier thread.
Best I could come up with was that the 3 extradited from the U.S. were of dual nationality.
I don't believe that any U.S. born full citizen has been extradited to date.

As I understand it, of the requests made, a greater proportion of our requests to them have been fulfilled than of theirs to us. More fiddling about with ECHR and such like in this country.

As for natural born citizens, I have no idea, but perhaps it comes down to the number of requests. If we haven't requested any US born citizens, then they are not very likely to extradite any!

daviesee

thelawnet wrote:

daviesee wrote:

FoldingJoe wrote:

Apparently they have extradited 3 US citizens or dual nationals to our 28!

I did a bit of digging around for an earlier thread.
Best I could come up with was that the 3 extradited from the U.S. were of dual nationality.
I don't believe that any U.S. born full citizen has been extradited to date.

As I understand it, of the requests made, a greater proportion of our requests to them have been fulfilled than of theirs to us. More fiddling about with ECHR and such like in this country.
All that means is that they are requesting a large amount of unnecessary requests. Statistics. Any U.S. citizens fulfilled?

As for natural born citizens, I have no idea, but perhaps it comes down to the number of requests. If we haven't requested any US born citizens, then they are not very likely to extradite any! Worldwide? I would have thought that there are a few Countries that would like to get their hands on Americans who have committed crimes abroad

daviesee

fourbytwo wrote:

I don't think things are as 'one sided' as was said. A US citizen called Robert Caldwell has already been convicted and sentenced to 20 months in prison back in June 2007 for his involvement in this transaction. Another person called Robert Gibson got two years and Chris Tappin has been regarded as a fugitive by the US Department of Justice since 9 November 2007. All this is according to a release published by them and available on the internet. So I don't see how this came as a big surprise to him. Maybe he thought he had got away with it?

Was he present? Was he aware? How often do you Google your own name?
Name the crime?

Ben6899

fourbytwo wrote:

I don't think things are as 'one sided' as was said. A US citizen called Robert Caldwell has already been convicted and sentenced to 20 months in prison back in June 2007 for his involvement in this transaction. Another person called Robert Gibson got two years and Chris Tappin has been regarded as a fugitive by the US Department of Justice since 9 November 2007. All this is according to a release published by them and available on the internet. So I don't see how this came as a big surprise to him. Maybe he thought he had got away with it?

According to other news reports also available on the internet Mr Tappin has given a couple of alternative 'explanations' as to who and what he thought the batteries in question were for!!
Mr Tappin has been claiming he was set up in a sting perpetrated by undecover ICE agents. Clearly the court in Texas who jailed the other two guys (who appear to be lower down the 'foodchain' than him in this case) didn't think this was the case.
I suppose when a country loses as many servicemen and suffers the numbers of maimed and wounded as the USA has in places like Iraq and Afghanistan they take things like this fairly seriously.
He has taken his case to every court in the land as well as the European Court of Human Rights and they have all denied him the right to avoid extradition. Are they all wrong?

Most forum members' first posts include a photo of a bike or a question about why the rear mech is clicking. So at least your first post is original, I'll give it marks for that.

fourbytwo

Ben, I must admit I'm not really much of a biker these days but have seen countless local T.V. news reports on this case over the last twelve months so I have taken the trouble to check it out on the internet.
Whilst doing so I stumbled across this forum topic which I thought was a bit of an unusual topic for this forum and thought it might be helpful to balance the debate by providing a bit of the info I had gleaned.
No offence to anyone was meant.

p.s. You know what they say "it takes a crank to start a revolution"!

thelawnet

daviesee wrote:

thelawnet wrote:

daviesee wrote:

FoldingJoe wrote:

Apparently they have extradited 3 US citizens or dual nationals to our 28!

I did a bit of digging around for an earlier thread.
Best I could come up with was that the 3 extradited from the U.S. were of dual nationality.
I don't believe that any U.S. born full citizen has been extradited to date.

As I understand it, of the requests made, a greater proportion of our requests to them have been fulfilled than of theirs to us. More fiddling about with ECHR and such like in this country.
All that means is that they are requesting a large amount of unnecessary requests. Statistics. Any U.S. citizens fulfilled?

As for natural born citizens, I have no idea, but perhaps it comes down to the number of requests. If we haven't requested any US born citizens, then they are not very likely to extradite any! Worldwide? I would have thought that there are a few Countries that would like to get their hands on Americans who have committed crimes abroad

You can have a read of the independent review conducted by the Home Office.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publicatio ... iew=Binary pp.231-255, 472.

They concluded that the provisions were fair and balanced.

This 'US full born citizen' accusation is a novel one and not one I can find any references to, so unless you've got something on this, I'm not going to take it seriously.

daviesee

thelawnet wrote:

You can have a read of the independent review conducted by the Home Office.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publicatio ... iew=Binary pp.231-255, 472.
They concluded that the provisions were fair and balanced.
This 'US full born citizen' accusation is a novel one and not one I can find any references to, so unless you've got something on this, I'm not going to take it seriously.

The independant review was carried out by Sir Scott Baker for the Home Office.
The Home Office is still reviewing the report. As such it is not definitive.
Plus, it is a review of the process and not this case. This case if anything shows how flawed the process is.
Source:- http://www.scribd.com/doc/82024418/The- ... xtradition.
I have nothing on any US full citizen being deported from the US simply because evidence of it ever happening does not exist - or is very hard to find. Until I find evidence of it happening I conclude that it has never happened.

bompington

daviesee wrote:

I have nothing on any US full citizen being deported from the US simply because evidence of it ever happening does not exist - or is very hard to find. Until I find evidence of it happening I conclude that it has never happened.

Has it occurred to you that not many Americans ever leave the US at all, so it's quite hard for them to commit crimes abroad? ;-)

daviesee

PS:- While digging around for info I found plenty cases of dual nationality citizens being deported, or cases of mistaken identities but no cases of the US extraditing what they think is a US citizen. I also found this....

"Q: If I am the victim of a crime committed in a foreign country, can the person who committed the crime be tried in U.S. courts?

A: Traditionally, the U.S. has resisted the idea that foreign nationals could be tried in U.S. courts for a crime committed abroad against a U.S. national (called "passive nationality jurisdiction"). In recent years, some U.S. criminal laws, especially those that relate to terrorism or terrorist acts, have been changed to allow U.S. authorities to prosecute some violent crimes against U.S. citizens wherever the crime was committed."
Source - http://www.whitecollarlawyer-houston.co ... ?focus=faq
Beware getting in a fight with an American, you could end up in San Quentin :shock:

daviesee

bompington wrote:

Has it occurred to you that not many Americans ever leave the US at all, so it's quite hard for them to commit crimes abroad? ;-)

Their dress sense is reason enough