What are the benifits of Higher Education?

welkman

I have recently been asked this question and I am interested in your views on it. Feel free to make a case against Higher Education as well.

My ideas of the benefits are a chance to indulge your passion for a subject, learning new skills and developing the skills you already have, increased earning potential, experience of a new social and cultural environment and making new friends.

It seems that there is now a course to suit almost anyone with vocational type qualifications and foundation degrees also counting as Higher Education. Are the financial costs really worth the supposed benefits? Does going to University/college make you more employable than just leaving school with good A Levels? Does not having a degree really hamper your chances of earning good wage? Do you really make 'friends for life'?

rjsterry

Depends very much what area you want to move in to - my career would have been impossible without (very lengthy) HE, as would many other professional careers where entry to the profession is controlled, but I can see that there are lots of potential careers where it is a less directly essential.

clarkey cat

ironically - the answer to your question is in the question itself.

sketchley

Benefits are life experience, assuming that is you go to university away from home. But there are other ways to get this. I think the main "benefit" is that you won't fail to get short listed for a job because you do not have the same qualification as others.

I failed university, dropping out after the first year and gaining some important life skills in the process. This meant I could not obviously get a graduate placement and instead had to take a job right at the very bottom at Xerox. While I progressed well in there, and was fairly senior when I left 9 year later, I was significantly behind my friends who all left university and went into graduate programs on better money and progressed faster. Parity was probably met by the time I left Xerox and maybe has been exceeded now in some circumstance but not all.

I think with GCSE, A-Levels, or a Degree you will be frozen out of parts of the job market and therefore job opportunities. That being said I'd advise any teenager to take break between A-Levels and a Degree and not just a gap year, go and find some work for a year or two, get a non education perspective then go back to university. I wish that I had done that (I still might).

And this is always worth a read http://amitdesh2k.blogspot.com/2010/01/ ... rsity.html

asprilla

For me it was eight years of cheap and plentiful drugs and booze, little in the way of responsibility and hanging around with lissom young ladies.

welkman

I understand that in some professions it is an essential requirement, but in others I see it as a requirement that cannot really be justified. For example in education you can become an 'instructor' and teach any subject you like to any level you like, you are assessed in the same way as a regular teacher and also treated the same way as a regular teacher but you do not have a degree/teaching qualification. Some of these people are excellent but their earning is extremely limited because they have no degree, if they want to earn the same as a normal teacher they have to do a distance learning degree over four years. This seems to be jumping through hoops for the sake of jumping through hoops?

welkman

Asprilla wrote:

For me it was eight years of cheap and plentiful drugs and booze, little in the way of responsibility and hanging around with lissom young ladies.

I wonder if this is the main attraction for most!

sketchley

welkman wrote:

I understand that in some professions it is an essential requirement, but in others I see it as a requirement that cannot really be justified. For example in education you can become an 'instructor' and teach any subject you like to any level you like, you are assessed in the same way as a regular teacher and also treated the same way as a regular teacher but you do not have a degree/teaching qualification. Some of these people are excellent but their earning is extremely limited because they have no degree, if they want to earn the same as a normal teacher they have to do a distance learning degree over four years. This seems to be jumping through hoops for the sake of jumping through hoops?

Problem is that even if the qualification is not essential to the profession, you will still get more CV from good people than you can accommodate in interviews. So you have to short list. Faced with a decision between two good CVs one completed a degree the other didn't or one has a-levels the other didn't, or one got 5 GCSE including maths and English and the other didn't, even if this is not a requirement for the job it will be used to short list.

welkman

Sketchley wrote:

And this is always worth a read http://amitdesh2k.blogspot.com/2010/01/ ... rsity.html

Quite an amusing article there, shame it didn't actually happen, I would have loved to have seen the reactions

suzyb

Avoiding work for a few years.

notsoblue

clarkey cat wrote:

ironically - the answer to your question is in the question itself.

I'm so glad I didn't have to be "That guy"

Philosophically, I think a (scientific) degree can have a hugely positive effect on your world view. Learning how to be enquiring and analytical is a good thing. The experience of realising that the more you study the more you realise you actually don't know is quite humbling. Also you're encouraged to formulate your own ideas and then defend them in front of your peers. This no doubt happens outside of higher education, but probably not in such a structured way.

il_principe

I'm starting to think that unless you do a vocational degree then these days it might be a waste of time (which makes me rather sad). I sometimes wish I'd gone straight into work - would have avoided student debt, which is far more of an issue now than it was 10 years ago. It does seem that old fashioned Humanities degrees are being sidelined with employers looking for sector specific qualifications - i.e marketing etc.

Personally I think a challenging humanities degree should be highly valued, and should give someone a range of options in terms of job hunting. Don't think this is the case anymore.

rjsterry

welkman wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

For me it was eight years of cheap and plentiful drugs and booze, little in the way of responsibility and hanging around with lissom young ladies.

I wonder if this is the main attraction for most!

Was going to post something, but I'd just end up bitterly ranting about media studies and business studies 'students'.

DonDaddyD

A Manager once said to me that a graduate calibre person (they don't have to have a degree) has the initiative to independently go and find a solution to a problem that has occured. A person who isn't of graduate calibre will wait until they've been given direction from their manager to find said solution or they may even expect their manager to propose the solution and they will simply implement it.

In my arena I struggle to dispute this. It seems that to some being of graduate calibre is natural. For others it is something learned at Uni.

University (aside from the poontang, drink and fast food) didn't teach me the answers it taught me how to go about finding the answers and how to think in a certain way.

notsoblue

DonDaddyD wrote:

A Manager once said to me that a graduate calibre person (they don't have to have a degree) has the initiative to independently go and find a solution to a problem that has occured. A person who isn't of graduate calibre will wait until they've been given direction from their manager to find said solution or they may even expect their manager to propose the solution and they will simply implement it.

In my arena I struggle to dispute this. It seems that to some being of graduate calibre is natural. For others it is something learned at Uni.

University (aside from the poontang, drink and fast food) didn't teach me the answers it taught me how to go about finding the answers and how to think in a certain way.

+1

okgo

welkman wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

For me it was eight years of cheap and plentiful drugs and booze, little in the way of responsibility and hanging around with lissom young ladies.

I wonder if this is the main attraction for most!

Wonder no more, that is the reason most people I know went to uni.

Personally I think unless your chosen career demands you go, or you go to a top 20 uni to study something proper (not something wishy washy), in this day an age its a waste of time.

After your first job interview which you may or may not have got if you didn't go to uni (this is where it helps, but with every Tom Dick and Harry having them, it really isn't going to help that much that you got a Desmond from Pompey in Marketing) you'll likely never be asked about it again. I didn't go, I missed out on the lazing around for 3 years, sure, but I did do all the socializing and drinking whilst working, long and short of it is that I am in a position at graduate age that a graduate would not be considered for, and I'm on a salary that only the top grad schemes in Law, Banking would pay.

BUT I don't doubt a decent degree from a decent uni would be the easier way to a pleasant life from a fiscal point of view. Just that most uni's are not decent, and most people don't go for the right reasons.

DonDaddyD

I'm starting to think that unless you do a vocational degree then these days it might be a waste of time (which makes me rather sad). I sometimes wish I'd gone straight into work - would have avoided student debt, which is far more of an issue now than it was 10 years ago. It does seem that old fashioned Humanities degrees are being sidelined with employers looking for sector specific qualifications - i.e marketing etc.

Personally I think a challenging humanities degree should be highly valued, and should give someone a range of options in terms of job hunting. Don't think this is the case anymore.

If I wanted to be a bio-mechanical engineer or an architect I would have studied the appropriate course. Equally, if I wanted to be a lawyer I would have studied law.

I enjoyed business and marketing. It is not a fault that there is value found in those subjects within jobs that circle the same topic.

rjsterry wrote:

welkman wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

For me it was eight years of cheap and plentiful drugs and booze, little in the way of responsibility and hanging around with lissom young ladies.

I wonder if this is the main attraction for most!

Was going to post something, but I'd just end up bitterly ranting about media studies and business studies 'students'.

I have a friend who studied media studies. You may have watched his editorial work on ITV 4's Veluta highlights. Now say something? Without what he learned at Uni he couldn't do his job.

I took modules in film and TV, it isn't just a random collection of poncy belief. There is actual form rationale and psychological analysis around how and why we watch TV.

I think people need to stop belittling (and being somewhat snobbish) about subjects that can be taught and learned. Society and technology has moved on from the Maths, English, Science, Humanities being top priority. Yes they have value within their own expertise but there are other subjects and skills to be learned, ones that are now more mainstream, that require specific knowledge/teaching.

How is the 'classics' going to help you when writing a HR report about bottle-necking (business speak be damned), the importance of motivation and staff training, the many facets that encompass IT, coding, a cash-flow forcast or a demograhic breakdown of your target niche market?

daviesee

DonDaddyD wrote:

A person who isn't of graduate calibre will wait until they've been given direction from their manager to find said solution or they may even expect their manager to propose the solution and they will simply implement it.

I dispute this. You won't be surprised
Getting an HNC is as far as I went and that was only as day release.
My job is basically finding solutions all day every day and if I have to run to a project leader etc on a regular basis I won't last long.
I have learned most of what I know on the job. By far.

It boils down the person. Their work ethic, attitude and drive.

PS - Re the young totty & drinking theory. That is about the only difference I saw between day release and full time.

DonDaddyD

daviesee wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

A person who isn't of graduate calibre will wait until they've been given direction from their manager to find said solution or they may even expect their manager to propose the solution and they will simply implement it.

I dispute this. You won't be surprised
Getting an HNC is as far as I went and that was only as day release.
My job is basically finding solutions all day every day and if I have to run to a project leader etc on a regular basis I won't last long.
I have learned most of what I know on the job. By far.

It boils down the person. Their work ethic, attitude and drive.

"Cool, you clearly are of graduate calibre. Did you ever think about getting a degree?"

Would be what that manager said. I only agree with him in the context of the NHS and even then that involves a very small sample of people. I also think you're right as well.

il_principe

DonDaddyD wrote:

I'm starting to think that unless you do a vocational degree then these days it might be a waste of time (which makes me rather sad). I sometimes wish I'd gone straight into work - would have avoided student debt, which is far more of an issue now than it was 10 years ago. It does seem that old fashioned Humanities degrees are being sidelined with employers looking for sector specific qualifications - i.e marketing etc.

Personally I think a challenging humanities degree should be highly valued, and should give someone a range of options in terms of job hunting. Don't think this is the case anymore.

If I wanted to be a bio-mechanical engineer or an architect I would have studied the appropriate course. Equally, if I wanted to be a lawyer I would have studied law.

Hence my bit about Vocational degrees.

The problem is that people are pushed down narrow paths. Do "Media Studies" and you are limiting your options. Study English, History etc and 10 years ago or so, you would have plenty of options. Now, not so much.

I work in marketing now, and most people I've met in the industry are of the opinion that marketing degrees are a complete waste of time. Most are teaching stuff that is completely outdated and is not backed up by any science whatsoever. I knew naff all about marketing before I joined, but my employer assumed that someone with a humanities degree from a decent uni would be able to pick things up. Luckily he was right, sadly it seems fewer and fewer employers think like that these days.

welkman

From the comments so far I think the approach to problem solving is one of the key benefits. Knowing where to look and what to trust are very valuable skills IMO.

il_principe

DonDaddyD wrote:

I think people need to stop belittling (and being somewhat snobbish) about subjects that can be taught and learned. Society and technology has moved on from the Maths, English, Science, Humanities being top priority. Yes they have value within their own expertise but there are other subjects and skills to be learned, ones that are now more mainstream, that require specific knowledge/teaching.

How is the 'classics' going to help you when writing a HR report about bottle-necking (business speak be damned), the importance of motivation and staff training, the many facets that encompass IT, coding, a cash-flow forcast or a demograhic breakdown of your target niche market?

Le sigh. I'm not belittling newer subjects. I'm merely annoyed by the fact that humanities degrees are being devalued. These degrees teach you how to think, to argue, to critique etc. These are valuable skills that are readily transferable. I worked in L&D for 8 years, and trust me on this, you do not need a degree in HR to understand how to write an HR report, or to understand staff training. You can learn on the job or get training, I did. In fact the L&D company I worked for was run by 4 guys. 1 had a degree in Theology from Cambridge, 1 a degree in History from Manchester, and the other 2 had no degrees at all. Didn't stop them from running a successful business and IME being far more effective than anyone I've ever met with a degree in HR.

P.s as someone who is in marketing you should have a good look at the new findings from marketing science - which blow concepts like "niche" marketing out of the water. I highly recommend you obtain Prof Byron Sharp's book “How Brands Grow.” Very interesting stuff that flys in the face of conventional marketing "wisdom."

DonDaddyD

Il Principe wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

I'm starting to think that unless you do a vocational degree then these days it might be a waste of time (which makes me rather sad). I sometimes wish I'd gone straight into work - would have avoided student debt, which is far more of an issue now than it was 10 years ago. It does seem that old fashioned Humanities degrees are being sidelined with employers looking for sector specific qualifications - i.e marketing etc.

Personally I think a challenging humanities degree should be highly valued, and should give someone a range of options in terms of job hunting. Don't think this is the case anymore.

If I wanted to be a bio-mechanical engineer or an architect I would have studied the appropriate course. Equally, if I wanted to be a lawyer I would have studied law.

Hence my bit about Vocational degrees.

The problem is that people are pushed down narrow paths. Do "Media Studies" and you are limiting your options. Study English, History etc and 10 years ago or so, you would have plenty of options. Now, not so much.

I would argue that "Media Studies" (if you have the talent) can lead to specialist jobs like editing, production etc.

I work in marketing now, and most people I've met in the industry are of the opinion that marketing degrees are a complete waste of time. Most are teaching stuff that is completely outdated and is not backed up by any science whatsoever. I knew naff all about marketing before I joined, but my employer assumed that someone with a humanities degree from a decent uni would be able to pick things up. Luckily he was right, sadly it seems fewer and fewer employers think like that these days.

I have a lot of views about marketing.

I've worked with people who don't know the first thing about marketing and it grates. Then there are those that know the difference between advertising, market research (the stuff I like - which I consider marketing proper), PR and communications. (The last two I'd say you need a English degree more than anything else).

For me marketing is analysing the demographics of your target audience/market, identifying a gap and then positioning your product within the market.

I think in exactly the same way as your boss. (See graduate calibre) There are those that are capable of picking it up while on the job. Send them on a CIM course (Chartered Institute of Marketing and they'll be as good as any).

I'm contemplating a shift from marketing to somethign a bit more Governance/Legal.

mudcow007

My degree was a waste of 5 years to be honest BSc in computing (part time)

the only vaguely interesting subject we touched upon was forensic computing but we did that for 2 weeks, at the end of the module we were told we coudl apply for forensic jobs as we have been trained in the art of forensics....ha!

same thing happened when we did Java programming, we did a bit of coding for a month or so. when we passed the module we were told to put it on our CVs that we were certified Java programmers

no entrance exam, aslong as you could pay an pass modules you were in

it might be useful to me in the future, but not at the moment

DonDaddyD

Il Principe wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

I think people need to stop belittling (and being somewhat snobbish) about subjects that can be taught and learned. Society and technology has moved on from the Maths, English, Science, Humanities being top priority. Yes they have value within their own expertise but there are other subjects and skills to be learned, ones that are now more mainstream, that require specific knowledge/teaching.

How is the 'classics' going to help you when writing a HR report about bottle-necking (business speak be damned), the importance of motivation and staff training, the many facets that encompass IT, coding, a cash-flow forcast or a demograhic breakdown of your target niche market?

Le sigh. I'm not belittling newer subjects. I'm merely annoyed by the fact that humanities degrees are being devalued. These degrees teach you how to think, to argue, to critique etc. These are valuable skills that are readily transferable. I worked in L&D for 8 years, and trust me on this, you do not need a degree in HR to understand how to write an HR report, or to understand staff training. You can learn on the job or get training, I did. In fact the L&D company I worked for was run by 4 guys. 1 had a degree in Theology from Cambridge, 1 a degree in History from Manchester, and the other 2 had no degrees at all. Didn't stop them from running a successful business and IME being far more effective than anyone I've ever met with a degree in HR.

Fair point that I can't counter. Any subject can be picked up by a capable individual. But subjects can demand specialist knowledge. Employment Law (which resides in HR in my place) I would argue is not something you could simply pick up in its entirity. But top level HR, sure.

But in principle anyone capable can learn and be taught. Yes.

P.s as someone who is in marketing you should have a good look at the new findings from marketing science - which blow concepts like "niche" marketing out of the water. I highly recommend you obtain Prof Byron Sharp's book “How Brands Grow.” Very interesting stuff that flys in the face of conventional marketing "wisdom."

Marketing - producing a demographic breakdown of a collective group of people (12,000 and 1.2 million respectively) with a common interest and then targeting the product at that group of people - is an aspect of my job. The other part is more Governance/Legal which I'm really beginning to like.

I am, however, a member of the CIM I've seen whispers of this "How brands grow" no niche markets etc. I'll give it a read. I like to stay current.

clarkey cat

I studied law - and am a lawyer.

It is not a pre-requisite to becoming a lawyer as you can do a conversion course. I wish I'd done this instead as I have now being doing law stuff since I was 18 and I'd loved to have had a few years of learning about medieval literature or something. Many of my best colleagues didn't study law. Although I did enjoy my degree - it was full of t0ssers.

sketchley

welkman wrote:

From the comments so far I think the approach to problem solving is one of the key benefits. Knowing where to look and what to trust are very valuable skills IMO.

IMO that comes from life experience. It happens you get that at Uni but it's not the only place. My problem solving is very good and regardless of subject matter and I dropped out....

DonDaddyD

University also builds a sense of aspiration and self belief.

If we have to live in an unsavory part of London, I'm going to drum into my son's head that he should go to Uni. Even if he doesn't and chooses something vocational at least he will have grown up with a sense of aspiration.

This I feel is lost in many of the youth of today.

notsoblue

DonDaddyD wrote:

University also builds a sense of aspiration and self belief.

If we have to live in an unsavory part of London, I'm going to drum into my son's head that he should go to Uni. Even if he doesn't and chooses something vocational at least he will have grown up with a sense of aspiration.

This I feel is lost in many of the youth of today.

Be careful, if you associate aspiration and success too much with just Uni and your son for whatever reason doesn't make it in or chooses something else then you're setting him up with having to deal with disappointment.

As for the youth of today, I doubt they're actually any less aspirational than we were. If anything they have to think more about their future before they go to Uni because its a much bigger investment. Actually, if the vox pops are to be believed, undergraduates seem to be more concerned with what they're going to do after they graduate than I ever was.

jzed

clarkey cat wrote:

I studied law - and am a lawyer.

Although I did enjoy my degree - it was full of t0ssers.

I got no enjoyment from law. The pressure of getting a good law degree from a good law school to get a place at a good law firm, coupled with not enjoying it meant I had to work harder at it and missed out on getting ratted all day every day like in sixth form. Kind of regret it in hindsight and wish I'd done drama or some other cr@p. The only thing it taught me was how to find the answer in lots of information pretty quickly. Got my degree and got out of law. Then had the easiest 3 years of getting ratted whilst studying/working in accountancy. Miss those days.

daviesee

DonDaddyD wrote:

"Cool, you clearly are of graduate calibre. Did you ever think about getting a degree?"

Nah. Preferred having the job and some dosh.
Would have been a waste of time and money anyway as I have climbed the tree as far as I want without it.
Any more climbing for me would just be a massive leap in responsibilities for little (if any) extra money. And it would be a sh!t job to boot. No thanks.