Was it my fault??

denzzz28

me and my friends was cruising along nicely on a long decent with speeds around 22-25mph. then i saw this pot hole so i tried to avoid it and the last thing i heard was a loud shout saying "oy!!!!!" then i saw my friend upside down on the middle of the road. did not realized he was too close on my tail and we touched wheels when i avoided the pothole.

He was alright aside from the nasty scratches on his arms, hips and hands. (he was fully covered as it was a very cold ride). oh i forgot to mention scratches on his Colnago bike. . It was a busy semi motorway and i was so glad there was no car behind him otherwise he could have been run down by a car with out a doubt.

I really felt upset after the incident because i caused the accident but then should he be riding to close on my tail? at 22mph pot holes appear so quickly and it is not always easy to avoid them whilst looking on your side at the same time, but should I have looked on my side before swerving?

can some please tell me if i was in the wrong here and can the incident could have been avoided.

any sensible replies will be appreciated

Thanks

Wirral_paul

Sounds like it could be a bit of both really - but i've got to be honest, it does sound mostly your fault if you were on the front of a group. Generally on a proper descent, club riders will spread out a bit and take their own line

Sounds like he was overlapping your wheel, or did you slow down slightly?? The front rider of a group should always be aware of the road ahead and signal early enough to allow the whole group to take gentle avoiding action if you're in a chain gang etc. If he was taking his own line and reading the road ahead however, he should have also seen the pothole and known you would go around it.

At the end of the day - its all Wiggle's fault regardless.

ben16v

if you didnt slow down but only moved to the side then you had no fault as his wheel must have been overlapping yours - unfortunate accident

rake

i dont know the set rules of group riding, but if this were a car the person behind would be wrong.
it seems to me most cyclists to be died on motorways/dual carriage ways. i dont think its wise.

nhoj

Thus spake the rake.

denzzz28

Wirral_Paul wrote:

Sounds like it could be a bit of both really - but i've got to be honest, it does sound mostly your fault if you were on the front of a group. Generally on a proper descent, club riders will spread out a bit and take their own line

Sounds like he was overlapping your wheel, or did you slow down slightly?? The front rider of a group should always be aware of the road ahead and signal early enough to allow the whole group to take gentle avoiding action if you're in a chain gang etc. If he was taking his own line and reading the road ahead however, he should have also seen the pothole and known you would go around it.

At the end of the day - its all Wiggle's fault regardless.

it was a downhill road so I did not slow down a bit in fact i was getting faster, it was a wide road too. we were a group of five riders and we were in a line with reasonable gaps to each other. it was a busy road and more like a semi(ish) motorway type of road so vehicles were fast and I would not expect a rider to stay beside me (right side). i also dont think that he is trying to overtake me as I am always faster than him in decents, Im not necessarily stronger but im heavier. I was leading the pack because I know the way back.

oh I remember I did look behind about 30secs before it happend and i remember he was about 6-8feet behind me. this is why i was surprise when we hit wheels.

Wirral_paul

denzzz28 wrote:

it was a downhill road so I did not slow down a bit in fact i was getting faster, it was a wide road too. we were a group of five riders and we were in a line with reasonable gaps to each other. it was a busy road and more like a semi(ish) motorway type of road so vehicles were fast and I would not expect a rider to stay beside me (right side). i also dont think that he is trying to overtake me as I am always faster than him in decents, Im not necessarily stronger but im heavier. I was leading the pack because I know the way back.

oh I remember I did look behind about 30secs before it happend and i remember he was about 6-8feet behind me. this is why i was surprise when we hit wheels.

In that case it sounds like its more his own fault then - he shouldnt have overlapped your wheel like that for the very reason you collided.

denzzz28

In that case it sounds like its more his own fault then - he shouldnt have overlapped your wheel like that for the very reason you collided.[/quote]

Thanks for the replies. I still feel guilty though. I might just buy him a new windproof jacket just to say sorry

SBezza

I wouldn't worry too much about it, accidents happen. Just think what might have happened if you hit the pothole, hit the deck, and all the riders behind came off as they piled into you.

It is nice to point out pot holes etc, but if you only see it at the last moment and have to move out the way, it is up to the riders behind to have sufficient space for this type of move. We live in the UK with shitty roads (even A roads have some poor surfaces), it pays to give yourself a little more space, especially when descending at speed.

denzzz28

SBezza wrote:

We live in the UK with shitty roads (even A roads have some poor surfaces), it pays to give yourself a little more space, especially when descending at speed.

True, thanks.

CYCLESPORT1

Sounds like your mates fault - but don't worry accidents happen

flasher

The dangers of half-wheeling!

Monty Dog

Yup, if the rider behind half-wheels the one in front, if the rider ahead moves sideways, be prepared for the consequences. The obligation of the rider in front is to call-out hazards to those following - those behind need to give enough room.

crankycrank

Well I'll throw in my view of all this. I'd say it was about a 50/50 fault of each of you. The leader of any group of riders has the responsibility to see and point out all the road hazards but sometimes it's not possible until it's too late. It's always best to hold your line and assume that someone may be close behind you but again, not always possible. Your mate probably shouldn't have been so close to you unless you both have an understanding ahead of time that you will both be doing this or he should give you a shout to let you know he's there. If I was racing or doing an echelon in high winds it may be worth the risk to half wheel closely but just not worth it on a pleasure ride. Learn to bunny hop which may save you from a few crashes and equipment damage in the long run. Basically it just sounds like a bad break and hopefully it won't harm your friendship.

cougie

I'd say it was really his fault.

Have you guys been cycling long ? Do you point out potholes to each other normally ?

He really shouldn't have been overlapping your wheel. I'd not buy him anything as then you're basically admitting responsibility.

ollyridesfirst

one word for you....



bunneyhop

rc856

Have you asked your mate if he was half wheeling you?
Is he blaming you or himself?

denzzz28

OllyRidesFirst wrote:

one word for you....



bunneyhop

yup, i guess i should have bunny hopped but my hand was not on the hoods it was on the bar very near the stem so i can not bunny hop for the fear of wobbling my front wheel. if my hands were on the hood then i would have definitely bunny hopped because i have more control.

denzzz28

RC856 wrote:

Have you asked your mate if he was half wheeling you?
Is he blaming you or himself?

He was not blaming me at all and yes, he was aware that he was half wheeling. i guess he was just not expecting me to swerve because the road was nice and smooth but instead there was the odd pot hole just waiting for his next victim. lol!

denzzz28

cougie wrote:

I'd say it was really his fault.

Have you guys been cycling long ? Do you point out potholes to each other normally ?

He really shouldn't have been overlapping your wheel. I'd not buy him anything as then you're basically admitting responsibility.

we have been cycling together for a while now (5 months). and yes we do hand signals for road hazards. but having said that, we never really talked about riding rules since we started riding. I think we all assumed that we know the rules but clearly some of us doesnt. I guess thats something we need to consider in the future.

ddraver

It sounds like crappy luck to me, both of you will live and learn. Maybe buy him a beer to say sorry, a new windproof would just set a dangerous precedent....

markos1963

Definatly a 50/50 so don't beat yourself up. Yes you should do what you can to warn others but if a pothole comes up unexpectedly you have to ride safely for yourself or it could cause more problems. He shouldn't have halfwheeled, this causes more shouts and grief than anything else on club rides as everyone knows the dangers of it.

Pross

I would say your mate has the majority of blame for overlapping your wheel. However, at those sorts of speeds in daylight it should be possible to spot hazards well in advance to ensure any evasive action doesn't have to be sudden and warning can be given to others. Were you riding with your head down due to fatigue or effort? Scan the road ahead of you and if you see anything that could be a hazard ease onto an avoiding course, shout and point to let those behind know.

giropaul

I'm fascinated to see the variety of ideas here. I guess it's another case of assuming that other people around you have the same understanding of protocols and behaviours that you have - sometimes with the sort of result we see here.

For what it's worth, as an ex-road and track rider with experience in Belgium and elsewhere I would say that it's always out of order to change your line suddenly. If this means you hit a pothole straight on, so be it. The Belgians would certainly see it as a serious offence - but then they can bunny hop without missing a beat.

As for crossing wheels - if, say, there is a crosswind from the left, then the correct place to be is to the right of the rider, with your wheel overlapping.

All that said, it's about making a judgement about the experience of those around you. They may not know the correct way to ride, or have been told. (sometimes they don't even want to be told!)

ddraver

...part of me did think why did nt you just stand up, stay loose and clatter over it...

Pross

giropaul wrote:

I'm fascinated to see the variety of ideas here. I guess it's another case of assuming that other people around you have the same understanding of protocols and behaviours that you have - sometimes with the sort of result we see here.

For what it's worth, as an ex-road and track rider with experience in Belgium and elsewhere I would say that it's always out of order to change your line suddenly. If this means you hit a pothole straight on, so be it. The Belgians would certainly see it as a serious offence - but then they can bunny hop without missing a beat.

As for crossing wheels - if, say, there is a crosswind from the left, then the correct place to be is to the right of the rider, with your wheel overlapping.

All that said, it's about making a judgement about the experience of those around you. They may not know the correct way to ride, or have been told. (sometimes they don't even want to be told!)

True but this is a beginners forum. Even in a crosswind you would want the distance to be sufficient to enable a reaction if the front rider moves off their line and you wouldn't want a half wheel overlap, you would probably have at least a full wheel overlapping so the other rider was aware you were there. Don't see much echelon riding on UK roads, even in races.

giropaul

That's why I said that it's about making a judgement about the experience of those around you.
One of the trends I've noticed more recently is that many cyclists now have fitness that exceeds their skills. Skills used to be slowly developed on the old-fashioned club runs, but people are now joining "bashes", and have the fitness to do so, without having had the opportunity to learn and develop the skills.
I agree you see little echelon riding in the UK, but knowing which side to put yourself in a 2 by 2 line can save oddles of effort.
Surely the Beginners Forum is the place to share some of the knowledge with beginners?

Pross

I agree with all that. The same people come into races and, whereas before they would have got dropped early, they are now still there at the end causing havoc. I have also noticed a lot of informal groups out riding, which is obviously a good thing, but they don't appear to have any experienced riders to organise them and rather than a tight group riding two by two and wheel to wheel they end up spread all over the road. I think this is part of the problem we now get with complaints about riding two abreast - it just isn't done properly!

ddraver

Come to Holland - Lots of echelons here..

(im still rubbish at them though )

FatLarry

I just love the fact that there's an ad for personal injury lawyers halfway down this page... :-)

denzzz28

FatLarry wrote:

I just love the fact that there's an ad for personal injury lawyers halfway down this page... :-)

just to be clear, i have nothing to do with this ad.. LOL!