Heavy Weight Boxing: Debate

DonDaddyD

Over the past few days I've been watching some old fight Razor Ruddock vs Tyson. Holyfield vs Lennox. Lennox's knockouts. A whole bunch of fights.

What I've concluded and I don't care what any of you say. Tyson was completely undefeatable before he went to prison to such a degree that had he fought any iteration of Lennox or Holyfield he'd have killed them.

I also think Lennox Lewis' knockout power was probably his most undertalked attribute, he had some serious knockout power. And even though he hit the heights that he did I feel that how great a fighter he actually was is often undersold.

Best three Heavyweight fighters (champions) of all time:

Ali
Tyson
Lennox

When deciding the above I have to consider fear and entertainment factor as well, not just before the fight but in the ring watching them fight.

Discuss/Debate.

bigmat

Not sure Tyson was as good as you think he was. He looked good, got found out, never looked as good again. Happens all the time. Very exciting fighter when he was younger, but not convinced he ever had the beating of a genuine bigger, skilled and unintimidated heavyweight. I reckon Ali, Foreman, Lewis, Holyfield would all have beaten him prime v prime, Frazier, Louis, Liston, Holmes etc would have been close fights. So probably top 10, but not at the top end.

Ali is the greatest. Lewis has a decent shout at number 2 to the extent that I can't see many fighters beating him if he brought his A game, just a shame he couldn't have a) showed a bit more aggression v Holyfield; and b) avoided those sloppy defeats. Then I think he might be getting the credit he deserves. Loved the way he smashed Vit Klit's face to pieces even after a sloppy training camp at the end of his career. Best part of a decade later, Klit still number 1!

Ginjafro

No "who was the greatest" is complete without mentioning ROCKY MARCIANO and SUGAR RAY ROBINSON.

EKE_38BPM

I think Tyson brought a lot of excitement to boxing. I just don't see that these days.

My favourite era of boxing was the Benn/Eubank/Watson days. All good fighters and their weight division are faster than the heavyweights and the slightly lighter blows lead to more spectacular fights. Ended in massive injury to Watson though. If they were heavyweights Watson would probably been knocked out earlier and that would have prevented the injury rather than being able to stay up and get pummled.

That injury changed boxing. Fights get stopped much earlier now than they used to. Good for the boxers, but not the same as it was.

DonDaddyD

Benn and Eubank can arguably be considered the two greatest or two of the greatest middleweight boxers of all time (Because of guys like Hearns and Hagler). On the subject of lighter punches Benn has a similar number of KOs as Lennox. Eubank slightly less, but that's known to be because the Watson fight affected him so badly he simply refused to finish off fighters in that way ever again.

EKE_38BPM

DonDaddyD wrote:

..Eubank slightly less, but that's known to be because the Watson fight affected him so badly he simply refused to finish off fighters in that way ever again.

And who can blame him.

In my opinion (i.e. not fact, just what I feel) middleweights have a higher knockout power to weight ratio than heavyweights. Heavyweights are heavier and are therefore harder to KO even though they are facing heavier blows than those thrown by a middleweight. Middleweights also throw more punches.

I think I'd rather go in the ring with a heavyweight than a middleweight, because I know that one good punch and I'd be knocked out but with a middleweight I might be able to stand up to a few blows which would result in my brain getting bounced around inside my skull a lot more.

Anyway, this is all OT. In answer to your question: Shimano.

TheStone

BigMat wrote:

Not sure Tyson was as good as you think he was. He looked good, got found out, never looked as good again.

Took a long time to get found out!

Hard to tell how good some of those he fought were, but I don't think anyone dominated like that before. His power at his prime was awesome.

As for the best, I'd have Frazier second (although I really don't know enough, or can compare to those of the past .. Joe Lewis etc)

DonDaddyD

I'm well aware of Floyd Patterson, Joe Louis and Jack Johnson - primarily because of their influence on... er... black people in society and the black identity (the image of the strong masculine black man).

But in my lifetime Ali (though had retired before I was born), Tyson and Lennox. I mean Tyson in his prime was scary man, proper scrary. I actually consider Tyson (pre-prison) the human embodiment of gangsta rap.

EKE_38BPM

Tyson has reached into the culture of America and Britain in the way that no other recent boxer has. Tyson means "Don't fuck".

Look how many status dogs are called Tyson. Can you imagine a dog called Audley?!

Anyone heard of Tyson Fury? What a great name for a boxer!

DonDaddyD

Great name, just not sure about the boxer though...

Incidentally I think it was at one of his fights I saw Chris Eubank Jr's first fight. Looks and moves like his Dad did when he (Chris Snr) was polished. Clearly hits hard but not sure whether he has the hunger to push him that bit further, will be interesting to see how he develops.

UndercoverElephant

Tyson was invincible before prison, I doubt there would be any boxer of any time who could have stood up to the barrage that he brought to the ring. Ali was an incredible boxer, but could he have fought Tyson in his pomp? The ferocity and vicious nature of his fighting was astounding, with no little skill and the ability to just get the job done. Even a real craftsman like Ali would have struggled with what was thrown at him, for all his superior skill.

Prison changed him a lot. No doubt he met people in there who were able to take him on and he almost looked scared and fragile when he came out.

bigmat

Pre-prison Tyson didn't walk through everyone, he was taken the distance. Not convinced he fought anybody of the very highest order either. He was obviously very very good though!

andyb78

Tyson was very, very good, that is without question. How good he could have been though, will never really be known! His lateral movement was fantastic, (head movement to the extent of what was pretty much unheard of for a HW at the time) very good combination puncher, a lot of power, and showed what was a surprisingly good chin and heart later on when he was getting caught. However... he struggled with big heavyweights with good jabs. Prime for prime, Lewis takes him 8 times out of 10. Tyson/Dempsey would have been a barnstormer, but I think Dempsey would have knocked him out first. Jim Jefferies would have probably had the edge (Tyson's stamina not really having been tested at the highest level) and the first incarnation of Big George has him out of there quickly. Ali (v1) has him beat before he even gets into the ring, IMHO. There's arguments to be made re: Vitali Klitschko probably having the better of him too, prime for prime...

Amazing achievements, but truly, came up short at the very top level, mostly because of his out of the ring lifestyle and personality.

DonDaddyD

BigMat wrote:

Pre-prison Tyson didn't walk through everyone, he was taken the distance. Not convinced he fought anybody of the very highest order either. He was obviously very very good though!

Give the guy some credit. There is no shame in being taken the distance. Yes it didn't happen in Ali's day but those fights had something like 15round that were 5 mins each round. You had to knock the guy out for your own safety.

The Ruddock fight more than anything else for me displayed Tyson's ability to take a punch.

TheStone

andyb78 wrote:

There's arguments to be made re: Vitali Klitschko probably having the better of him too, prime for prime...

No. Just no.

DonDaddyD

UndercoverElephant wrote:

Tyson was invincible before prison, I doubt there would be any boxer of any time who could have stood up to the barrage that he brought to the ring. Ali was an incredible boxer, but could he have fought Tyson in his pomp? The ferocity and vicious nature of his fighting was astounding, with no little skill and the ability to just get the job done. Even a real craftsman like Ali would have struggled with what was thrown at him, for all his superior skill.

Prison changed him a lot. No doubt he met people in there who were able to take him on and he almost looked scared and fragile when he came out.

Two points:

(1) Ali fought harder longer fights with as hungry (and arguably stronger/tougher) fighters than Tyson. I personally believe that Foreman hit harder but wasn't as tough, and Fraizer was tougher but did hit as hard as Tyson. America when they (Ali's opponents) grew up does things to the soul and mind, "creates a kinda grit that makes you sooner die than give up".

I think Tyson would have beaten Fraizer and Foreman, but in their primes I think they would have bought a tougher fight to Ali than Tyson would have. I think Ali would have beaten Tyson.

(2) Tyson was incredibly skilled go back through his fights, look past the menance and review his combinations, movement and hand speed. Guy was incredibly skilled and arguably the greatest example of Cus D'Amato's peek-a-boo style as also mastered by Floyd Patterson.

DonDaddyD

andyb78 wrote:

There's arguments to be made re: Vitali Klitschko probably having the better of him too, prime for prime...

bigmat

DonDaddyD wrote:

BigMat wrote:

Pre-prison Tyson didn't walk through everyone, he was taken the distance. Not convinced he fought anybody of the very highest order either. He was obviously very very good though!

Give the guy some credit. There is no shame in being taken the distance. Yes it didn't happen in Ali's day but those fights had something like 15round that were 5 mins each round. You had to knock the guy out for your own safety.

The Ruddock fight more than anything else for me displayed Tyson's ability to take a punch.

I'm giving him credit, I just don't think he was ever the force of nature some people think. Ruddock demonstrates that a big heavy who wasn't scared and who had a game plan could go the distance with "prime" Mike and cause him some trouble as well. And there is a huuuge gulf in class between Ruddock and someone like Ali, Foreman, Lewis or Frazier.

DonDaddyD

BigMat wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

BigMat wrote:

Pre-prison Tyson didn't walk through everyone, he was taken the distance. Not convinced he fought anybody of the very highest order either. He was obviously very very good though!

Give the guy some credit. There is no shame in being taken the distance. Yes it didn't happen in Ali's day but those fights had something like 15round that were 5 mins each round. You had to knock the guy out for your own safety.

The Ruddock fight more than anything else for me displayed Tyson's ability to take a punch.

I'm giving him credit, I just don't think he was ever the force of nature some people think. Ruddock demonstrates that a big heavy who wasn't scared and who had a game plan could go the distance with "prime" Mike and cause him some trouble as well. And there is a huuuge gulf in class between Ruddock and someone like Ali, Foreman, Lewis or Frazier.

I don't think so, Ruddock was considered, at the time, one of the top four hevyweight boxers, the other three being Tyson, Bowe and Holyfield. Both Bowe and Holyfield ducked Ruddock.

After the second Tyson fight, Ruddock said that it took everything out of him - and he did show huge heart in both - and that both fighters were never the same. I'm inclined to agree Ruddock clearly decclined and the Ruddock fight for me, was the last fight Tyson had where he could have truly be considered Iron Mike (he did go to prison afterwards).

Paul E

DonDaddyD wrote:

What I've concluded and I don't care what any of you say. Tyson was completely undefeatable

Discuss/Debate.

What was the point in putting that statement at the end if you don't care what anyone else says!

tailwindhome

Clubber Lang

Awesome

DonDaddyD

Paul E wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

What I've concluded and I don't care what any of you say. Tyson was completely undefeatable

Discuss/Debate.

What was the point in putting that statement at the end if you don't care what anyone else says!

This is why

EKE_38BPM

Leroy Smith

bonkstrong

I'm more of a Muay Thai fan myself BUT after doing a bit of research (YouTube surfing) I came across this little gem

Catch me if you can

At first I was underwhelmed but after about 2 minutes of watching Iron Mike duck, bob, dodge and swerve I began to realise that he was actually a master of not getting hit and it wasn't just lucky that the shots were missing.

Paul E

DonDaddyD wrote:

Paul E wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

What I've concluded and I don't care what any of you say. Tyson was completely undefeatable

Discuss/Debate.

What was the point in putting that statement at the end if you don't care what anyone else says!

This is why

What was it you said that you are saying is a figure of speach, you stated you didn't care what anyone else said. Therefore you had closed you mind off to discussion and debate, and then you asked people to do that very thing.

Just saying! (figure of speech)

DonDaddyD

Paul E wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Paul E wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

What I've concluded and I don't care what any of you say. Tyson was completely undefeatable

Discuss/Debate.

What was the point in putting that statement at the end if you don't care what anyone else says!

This is why

What was it you said that you are saying is a figure of speach, you stated you didn't care what anyone else said. Therefore you had closed you mind off to discussion and debate, and then you asked people to do that very thing.

Just saying! (figure of speech)

You must be a barrel of laughs in the pub.

Honestly! What is your problem? The thread is two pages long and there was/is an interesting dicussion taking place that is in keeping with the topic of the thread. Clearly my opening post isn't a hinderance to those that have chosen to take part in this thread. Why you feel to come into this thread now, just to gripe a relative no-issue is beyond me.

Paul E

I'm f~'kin hilarious

walkingbootweather

Paul E - can't believe that you haven't argued that your brother-in-law, Rocky Balboa, wasn't the greatest ever heavyweight. :?

spen666

can't believe people are not suggesting John L Gardener or John H Stacey or Audley Harrison

mudcow007

EKE_38BPM

walkingbootweather wrote:

Paul E - can't believe that you haven't argued that your brother-in-law, Rocky Balboa, wasn't the greatest ever heavyweight. :?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncySiTOMAHc