War...was is it good for?

greg66_tri_v2.0

bompington wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Exactly Gregg - it's totally arbitrary and pointless.

What's the value of having an island next to Argentina? Is the value enough to warrant more blood shed?

I.e. what's the cost/benefit analysis? My gut feeling is that it comes out 'not worth defending', but I don't know.

Would you feel the same way if it was your home being threatened with invasion? The Falklands is no more pointless than any other nation to its inhabitants, and to describe the existence of nation states as "totally arbitrary and pointless", which is effectively what you do, shows a surprising lack of understanding of history and psychology, unless it's just anti-colonialist wishful thinking?

I think that's what it is. Although there is supposed to be some suggestion that there is oil/gas off the Falklands (isn't there always? And offshore drilling the South Atlantic would be fun. Not). I don't know how much it legitimises our claim to the British Antartic Territory, at least, amongst those nations who recognise such a claim, but I would guess a bit. And in 100 years it'll be drill, baby drill on Antractica, no mistakin'.

rick_chasey

bompington wrote:

Would you feel the same way if it was your home being threatened with invasion? The Falklands is no more pointless than any other nation to its inhabitants, and to describe the existence of nation states as "totally arbitrary and pointless", which is effectively what you do, shows a surprising lack of understanding of history and psychology, unless it's just anti-colonialist wishful thinking?

Look, Argentina wanting it is as colonial as Britain having it, right?

Especially if they take it with force.

So that's a non-starter.

It's just I don't ever see the Fauklands as anything other than rock with a few thousand people on it. We never hear about it, we never read about it. The only time they're mentioned is when Argentina want it.

I don't agree with Argentinian aggression, but nor am I particularly in favour of an enormous military effort over something so insignificant to the UK.

Couldn't they come to an agreement over it? Say, let it be it's own state within Argentina that has its own parliament, a bit like Jersey or something?

I dunno. War seems so much for something so small so far away!

rick_chasey

Ultimately, Britain having the Faukland's is a historical anachronism, and is of little relevance today, so why spill blood over it?

I'm just anti-war and I think Britain could be seen to temper Argentinian belligerence more than it does.

daviesee

SimonAH wrote:

3) If Scotland devolves does England have to give them a bit of the Falklands to be Scottish?

As the original Falkland is in Fife, we will claim 100% ownership. If there's oil

oldraver

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ultimately, Britain having the Faukland's is a historical anachronism, and is of little relevance today, so why spill blood over it?

I'm just anti-war and I think Britain could be seen to temper Argentinian belligerence more than it does.

Yes we could do that, just like how in 82 the captain of HMS Conqueror after sinking the Belgrano signalled the Argentinian fleet that she was withdrawing from the scene & all Argentinian vessels could pick up survivors without the threat of military action being taken against them.

Guess what they ran away leaving their fellow countrymen to drown.
The Captain of the Belgrano Héctor Bonzo admitted they were involved in a classic pincer movement in order to take out the British carriers. I wonder whether they would have withdrawn from the scene if they had achieved their aim?

Who invaded who again? So if you wish to talk about belligerence then please carry on.

SimonAH

Interesting Titbit, the Belgrano used to be an American boat (under a different name of course) that they sold to Argentina. It's claim to fame is that it was the only boat to survive Pearl Harbour (if memory serves) and floated around happily until we took over from the Japanese and sank it :-D

oldraver

SimonAH wrote:

Interesting Titbit, the Belgrano used to be an American boat (under a different name of course) that they sold to Argentina. It's claim to fame is that it was the only boat to survive Pearl Harbour (if memory serves) and floated around happily until we took over from the Japanese and sank it :-D

Good try but not quite true http://www.pearlharbor.org/ships-and-aircraft.asp

rebs

Is anyone actually going to mention anything about the population of Falklands who actually still want to be part of Britain and not Argentina?:P

I mean they don't sound like those folks from Cornwall who wish to be their own state :P

MonkeyMonster

See this why we chat is better than cake stop - we have Ngale and Oldraver giving us a brilliant hardware digest, shame SimonAH has been watching too many Ben Affleck films to know better

MonkeyMonster

rebs wrote:

Is anyone actually going to mention anything about the population of Falklands who actually still want to be part of Britain and not Argentina?:P

I mean they don't sound like those folks from Cornwall who wish to be their own state :P

I believe they've voted and the majority want to stay britsh - a fact Cameron is quite keen to re-iterate but is being ignored by argentina mostly...

SimonAH

oldraver wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

Interesting Titbit, the Belgrano used to be an American boat (under a different name of course) that they sold to Argentina. It's claim to fame is that it was the only boat to survive Pearl Harbour (if memory serves) and floated around happily until we took over from the Japanese and sank it :-D

Good try but not quite true http://www.pearlharbor.org/ships-and-aircraft.asp

Aw shucks, it was from my memory which, to quote Douglas Adams "is like the Alexandra Birdwing butterfly in that it flits prettily hither and thither and is now, alas, almost completely extinct" (note to pedants, that quote was from memory too)

Anyway, from the 'pedia;

The warship was built as USS Phoenix (CL-46), the sixth of the Brooklyn-class light cruisers, in New Jersey by the New York Shipbuilding Corporation starting in 1935, and launched in March 1938. She survived the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941, and was decommissioned from the US Navy (USN) after World War II in July 1946. Phoenix earned nine battle stars for World War II service.

The former USS Phoenix was sold to Argentina in October 1951 with another of her class (Boise (CL-47), which was renamed ARA Nueve de Julio (C-5)), for US$7.8 million. (Nueve de Julio was scrapped in 1978). She was renamed 17 de Octubre after the People's Loyalty day, an important milestone for the political party of the then president Juan Perón. Ironically, she was one of the main units which joined the coup in which Perón was subsequently overthrown in 1955, and the ship was renamed General Belgrano (C-4) after General Manuel Belgrano, who had fought for Argentine independence from 1811 to 1819 and founded the Escuela de Náutica (School of Navigation) in 1799. The cruiser accidentally rammed her sister Nueve de Julio on exercises in 1956, which resulted in damage to both cruisers.[2] The Belgrano was outfitted with the Sea Cat anti-aircraft missile system between 1967 and 1968.[3]

noodles71

Rick Chasey wrote:

I never said that.

I was just making the point that claims to colonised bits miles away from the actual nation are all pretty arbitrary anyway.

What Argentina has in its favour if you want to go down the 'claim' route is proximity. i.e. it's the closest proper country to the island.

Following this logic means that Argentina and Chile could be claiming Antarctica next

noodles71

Greg66 wrote:

bompington wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Exactly Gregg - it's totally arbitrary and pointless.

What's the value of having an island next to Argentina? Is the value enough to warrant more blood shed?

I.e. what's the cost/benefit analysis? My gut feeling is that it comes out 'not worth defending', but I don't know.

Would you feel the same way if it was your home being threatened with invasion? The Falklands is no more pointless than any other nation to its inhabitants, and to describe the existence of nation states as "totally arbitrary and pointless", which is effectively what you do, shows a surprising lack of understanding of history and psychology, unless it's just anti-colonialist wishful thinking?

I think that's what it is. Although there is supposed to be some suggestion that there is oil/gas off the Falklands (isn't there always? And offshore drilling the South Atlantic would be fun. Not). I don't know how much it legitimises our claim to the British Antartic Territory, at least, amongst those nations who recognise such a claim, but I would guess a bit. And in 100 years it'll be drill, baby drill on Antractica, no mistakin'.

Google Desire Petroleum and Rockhopper and you will get an idea of why we are defending the place. They have been bringing tears to investors for years about the amount of so called oil down there. To send a type 45 down there must mean there is some truth to the whispers about it being the next North Sea.

oldraver

SimonAH wrote:

oldraver wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

Interesting Titbit, the Belgrano used to be an American boat (under a different name of course) that they sold to Argentina. It's claim to fame is that it was the only boat to survive Pearl Harbour (if memory serves) and floated around happily until we took over from the Japanese and sank it :-D

Good try but not quite true http://www.pearlharbor.org/ships-and-aircraft.asp

Aw shucks, it was from my memory which, to quote Douglas Adams "is like the Alexandra Birdwing butterfly in that it flits prettily hither and thither and is now, alas, almost completely extinct" (note to pedants, that quote was from memory too)

Anyway, from the 'pedia;

The warship was built as USS Phoenix (CL-46), the sixth of the Brooklyn-class light cruisers, in New Jersey by the New York Shipbuilding Corporation starting in 1935, and launched in March 1938. She survived the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941, and was decommissioned from the US Navy (USN) after World War II in July 1946. Phoenix earned nine battle stars for World War II service.

The former USS Phoenix was sold to Argentina in October 1951 with another of her class (Boise (CL-47), which was renamed ARA Nueve de Julio (C-5)), for US$7.8 million. (Nueve de Julio was scrapped in 1978). She was renamed 17 de Octubre after the People's Loyalty day, an important milestone for the political party of the then president Juan Perón. Ironically, she was one of the main units which joined the coup in which Perón was subsequently overthrown in 1955, and the ship was renamed General Belgrano (C-4) after General Manuel Belgrano, who had fought for Argentine independence from 1811 to 1819 and founded the Escuela de Náutica (School of Navigation) in 1799. The cruiser accidentally rammed her sister Nueve de Julio on exercises in 1956, which resulted in damage to both cruisers.[2] The Belgrano was outfitted with the Sea Cat anti-aircraft missile system between 1967 and 1968.[3]

Nice quote shame we sank such an impressive vessel.
Although to quote the Iron Lady " They were a threat to our boys ".

Escadrille Ecosse

Basic principle enshrined in the UN Charter on Human Rights, the Principle of the Right of Self Determination.

So we have the division of Schleswig- Holstein based on a plebiscite after the First World War, even Hitler recognised that loss of territory.

Hawaii democratically voting to become a territory of the USA, just like Texas did (there is some note of irony there).

East Timor voting for separation from Indonesia, not that there were a lot of East Timorese left by the time the world finally recogonised they had a point in not wanting to be "saved" from Portugese oppression by the Indonesians.

The separation of Czechoslovakia into Slovakia and Czech Republic.

The secession of Scotland from the United Kingdom if Alexi Salmonella gets his way.

All the stuff about British Imperialism just doesn't seem to stack up, I'm not sure there is much evidence of GB plc being prepared to spend a dud thruppeny bit on maintaining t'Empire over the last sixty years or so. HMG has generally been more interested in getting out pretty sharpish almost regardless of the wishes of the locals, refer to the stooshie about Gibraltar for instance, and you can't get much more imperial than there, except perhaps for Mellila and Ceutta.

Stevo_666

MonkeyMonster wrote:

rebs wrote:

Is anyone actually going to mention anything about the population of Falklands who actually still want to be part of Britain and not Argentina?:P

I mean they don't sound like those folks from Cornwall who wish to be their own state :P

I believe they've voted and the majority want to stay britsh - a fact Cameron is quite keen to re-iterate but is being ignored by argentina mostly...

+1 for self determination.

No surprise that they want to stay British either as many of them will remember how badly the Argentinians treated the Falkland Islanders in their brief occupation (as I heard directly from friend of my Dad who was there at the time of the invasion). I doubt the Argies will be so stupid as to try another attempt to take over by force, but as long as it wins votes they will keep rattling the sabre.

It'll certainly make the next England-Argentina footy matches even more of a grudge match than they already are.