When did we start speaking our current language?

Genau

DonDaddyD wrote:

People would write in one language and speak in another? Where else or when has that ever been the norm in one Country.

The Swiss German speaking part of Switzerland today. They speak Swiss German but write in High German and the two are very different.

DonDaddyD

This, for me, is one of the more intersting threads I've experienced. thanks for the info and links everyone!

rick_chasey

In Africa it's all over the place, but as a rule of thumb, the vernacular is not used when writing. It'll usually be either English or French, with perhaps one nominated African language by the state (though that will inevitably not be the vernacular used for many people there)

Jay dubbleU

Paulie W wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

Latin was almost certainly never a spoken langauge in the UK

I thought the Romans spoke Latin and bought it here when they occupied England?

Not really. It's rare for an occupying force to impose its langauge wholesale. Some of the British elite may have learnt Latin because that was a way to get on in life but most ordinary people wouldnt (which is not to say that Latin didnt have an impact on the language being spoken at the time). Many of the occupying soldiers wouldnt have been Latin speakers anyway (certainly not as a first language).

Most 'Roman' soldiers who came to this country from the provinces - for example the Ninth legion was dubbed 'Espania' and there are records of Syrian auxiliaries and bargemen from the Tigris serving on the wall. There would have been senior officials from Rome but many local governors were Romano-British

rjsterry

Ancient Egypt had three written languages: Hieroglyphics, which everyone knows about, and was used for inscriptions and important documents and religious texts; Hieratic, a cursive form of hieroglyphics, and Demotic for every day use. And in the Ptolemaic period, they used Greek as well - Imagine the keyboards :shock:

team47b

DonDaddyD wrote:

People would write in one language and speak in another? Where else or when has that ever been the norm in one Country.

I'm doing it now! Falo em Português e em Inglês escrever todos os dias on this forum. Well it's the norm for me!

plowmar

People would write in one language and speak in another? Where else or when has that ever been the norm in one Country.

The majority of romans spoke Greek as it was easier to be understood in the empire by doing so.

notsoblue

Hmmm. Quite. Indeed.

rick_chasey

notsoblue wrote:

Hmmm. Quite. Indeed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... tf260qnDeU

bompington

Rick Chasey wrote:

In Africa it's all over the place, but as a rule of thumb, the vernacular is not used when writing. It'll usually be either English or French, with perhaps one nominated African language by the state (though that will inevitably not be the vernacular used for many people there)

In my (limited) experience of Africa - Uganda basically - most educated people can speak at least three languages: English, used for school and official business and so the main written language; Swahili, which is a useful language up and down east Africa; and their own tribal language (the biggest in Uganda is Luganda, spoken by the Buganda), plus maybe one or two more.

And in the middle of Europe, exactly* as Genau commented, there is a variety of Germanish and Frenchish languages, so in Luxembourg for example, french is the written language for most official business, german is widely spoken, but Lëtzebuergesch, which comes across as a sort of cross between german and french, is what they mostly speak at home.

Although all this seems strange to us stubbornly monolingual brits, it looks like this kind of polylingualism is much more the norm both historically and round the world today.

*ibi quid vidisti? hast du gesehen, was ich dort tat? umeona nini mimi huko?

tailwindhome

bompington wrote:

their own tribal language (the biggest in Uganda is Luganda, spoken by the Buganda)

Suppose they drink Um Bongo in the Congo too?

EKE_38BPM

SimonAH wrote:

It could be argued that we don't.

For example this is nominally English; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3PPnV2Uh-w

but I suspect that DDD will understand about 70% more than I do. By comparison if I took a lot of you down from London to the Welsh valleys and introduced you to some friends in the Rhondda I rather think that there would be a lot of head scratching there too. It's not just an accent, it's almost a patois.

By the way DDD, please translate what sounds like 'blood clot' for me! :-D

"Blood clot" (I would write it as 'blood claart') would be translated to "blood cloth". What we now know as a sanitary towel! That same applies to 'pussy claart'.

'Bumbo claart' and 'Raas claart' would translate to toilet paper.

jimmypippa

Bûter, brea, en griene tsiis,
Wa't dat net sizze kin is gjin oprjochte Fries.

Butter, bread, and green cheese,
Whoever cannot say that is no upright Frisian.

A google search for the above got me to this website: http://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/history_old.html
The above poem is modern Frisian, which is supposed* to be the language closest to Old English, they have an audio clip of a Frisian speaker saying this.


*I am not an expert, unlike, I suspect, some of the other posters; however I found it interesting.

jimmypippa

Another part that sheds light on our early social structure is that "ox" and "oxen" are germanic, but "beef" has french roots. similarly "sheep" and "mutton".

The explanation I've heard for this is that the Norman's would demand the meat, and the Saxon would have the job of looking after the livestock.

SimonAH

If you have an interest in etymology can I recommend "Take our word for it"? Absolutely wonderful website if you'd like to know the roots and history of our language. I've wasted (?) many an hour trawling through it - fascinating.

rick_chasey

jimmypippa wrote:

Bûter, brea, en griene tsiis,
Wa't dat net sizze kin is gjin oprjochte Fries.

Butter, bread, and green cheese,
Whoever cannot say that is no upright Frisian.

A google search for the above got me to this website: http://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/history_old.html
The above poem is modern Frisian, which is supposed* to be the language closest to Old English, they have an audio clip of a Frisian speaker saying this.


*I am not an expert, unlike, I suspect, some of the other posters; however I found it interesting.

It is indeed shame that I was born in Friesland and do not speak Frisian.

Most people let me off though .

EKE_38BPM

Rick Chasey wrote:

jimmypippa wrote:

Bûter, brea, en griene tsiis,
Wa't dat net sizze kin is gjin oprjochte Fries.

Butter, bread, and green cheese,
Whoever cannot say that is no upright Frisian.

A google search for the above got me to this website: http://www.thehistoryofenglish.com/history_old.html
The above poem is modern Frisian, which is supposed* to be the language closest to Old English, they have an audio clip of a Frisian speaker saying this.


*I am not an expert, unlike, I suspect, some of the other posters; however I found it interesting.

It is indeed shame that I was born in Friesland and do not speak Frisian.

Most people let me off though .

I went to Friesland on a college exchange trip. If you were a bit younger I'd comment that there is a chance that I could be your dad. I liked Friesland (well one particular lady, anyway).

Gussio

A History of the English Speaking Peoples by Winston Churchill is worth a read if you are interested in this kind of thing. If you can't get the four volumes, I think that there is an abridged version available. I read the books 15 years ago and found them to be wonderful - much more interesting than you might expect. Churchill's writing is very accessible.

notsoblue

Language is fun. I always thought it interesting that "ken" in Scottish English (is there a better term for that?) has the same meaning as the word does in Dutch.

jejv

I'd suggest "The stories of English" - David Crystal
If that's a bit lightweight, maybe: Trask's Historical Linguistics

MonkeyMonster

notsoblue wrote:

Language is fun. I always thought it interesting that "ken" in Scottish English (is there a better term for that?) has the same meaning as the word does in Dutch.

Scots I tihnk is the more common term for scottish english. I presume you mean "know" as in ah dunnae ken - I don't know.

Jammy piece = sandwich with jam within
Messages = shopping list

rjsterry

notsoblue wrote:

Language is fun. I always thought it interesting that "ken" in Scottish English (is there a better term for that?) has the same meaning as the word does in Dutch.

Scots is the right word I think, possibly Lallans (literally Lowlands as opposed to the Gaelic speaking Highlands). This is because what is now part of southern Scotland was at one time part of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Northumbria - cf. Edinburgh as opposed to the earlier Dun Eidyn. The Brythonic-speaking kingdom Cumbria also extended up to Glasgow. Just been reading all about this in Vanished Kingdoms by Norman Davies.

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/british_isles_802.jpg

This is why the Welsh name for Wales - Cymru - is similar to Cumbria - they originally spoke the same language. Wales is of Anglo-Saxon origin, meaning foreigner, much like the word Walloon.

MonkeyMonster

rjsterry wrote:

to the earlier Dun Eidyn.

Interesting - dunedain (pronounced dun ee den) is common name for schools and roads in edinburgh... Gaelic for edinburgh (it seems too) and how I would pronounce Dun Eidyn.

Tolkein nicked it and changed the pronounciation.

Well well well.

rick_chasey

Christ it's like being back at home with the family (albeit less scintillating obviously )

Son of and brother to linguists. :roll:

MonkeyMonster

Rick Chasey wrote:

Christ it's like being back at home with the family (albeit less scintillating obviously )

Son of and brother to linguists. :roll:

Heh, I knew 4 at uni... Most of that years intake infact.

rick_chasey

MonkeyMonster wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Christ it's like being back at home with the family (albeit less scintillating obviously )

Son of and brother to linguists. :roll:

Heh, I knew 4 at uni... Most of that years intake infact.

No exaggeration, mum would bring out the dictionary and expect me and my sister to come up with a definition for a word that rival's the dictionary at dinner.

rjsterry

MonkeyMonster wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

to the earlier Dun Eidyn.

Interesting - dunedain (pronounced dun ee den) is common name for schools and roads in edinburgh... Gaelic for edinburgh (it seems too) and how I would pronounce Dun Eidyn.

Tolkein nicked it and changed the pronounciation.

Well well well.

Dun Eidyn is the Brythonic (British) spelling, I think. Tolkien was an expert on languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._R._R._Tolkien#Languages_and_philology

jejv

DonDaddyD wrote:

People would write in one language and speak in another? Where else or when has that ever been the norm in one Country.

Chinese. Arabic.
All written languages to a greater or lesser extent - English English-speakers write English differently to the way they speak - but that's maybe more a change of register.

Doukipudonktan ?

EKE_38BPM

notsoblue wrote:

Language is fun. I always thought it interesting that "ken" in Scottish English (is there a better term for that?) has the same meaning as the word does in Dutch.

Language is fun!

rjsterry

Ooh, good spot.