I wish I could earn that much every week

Thewaylander

One thing to bear in mind with the supposed lack of jobs is that people these days are generally highly educated, (watched a program on thsi recently) And they were discussing that the people looking for jobs are generally looking for entry level manegment or office jobs(obviously there are only so many of theses available)

But the job agency were apparently inendated with metal worker jobs and soo on, which the UK public refuse to do as they have degree's also for alot of these postitions they are highly skilled labour jobs, and in the UK we don't train anyone to do them. Business has given up on apprenticeships and the answer we got from labour was get a degree, bad move! as it wasn't the type of job skills the market needed. Now we are paying for it as we import lots of trained skilled workers (like the polish for example) to fill these rolls leaving locals unemployed.

How we get around this is a different thing though? other than reducing degrees greatly (which with fee's i think there doing anyway) and reintroducing decent practicle qualifications(bring back the pollies!) and the mass reducating peoples expectations of life back to values of 20 years ago i don't know. :S


but back on mark, I think the trick to the this conversation i believe the cap is a good way of moderating spending on benefits in this case, yes it should be balanced with living position(26k in Cardiff goes alot further than London for example) but a small family can live fairly comfortable in cardiff 26k very easily so i really don't see the need to give more. in fact less they should be made to live basically to a point to encourage self improvement for employment.

These are of course my opinions and probably bear no true relation to the state of things

MountainMonster

My wife and I, albeit without kids, put a roof over our head (decent size and quality), always had decent food, had a bit of spending cash for ourselves, as well as moped to get around, plus cash to do things on weekends if we chose, all on 900 a month. Figure in another 2-300 for costs for a kid, and we would have come out alright on students part time jobs wages. People who say with one kid, 2 kids, or even 3 kids, that they couldn't live life on just 2 minimum wage jobs, pulling in 2k a month in total, are just lieing to themselves and being lazy. Maybe you won't have the cash to go out every friday and hit the clubs and get pissed, but your standard of life will be decent, and you won't be a burden to society.

Northwind

Briggo wrote:

The one thing that REALLY ticks me off is the lame excuse not to work, "Oh the educational software industry dried up and so theres no work about now for that"

Aye... When I got my redundancy from the bank, pretty much the only thing I knew was that I didn't want to go and work for a bank, even though that's what I'm experienced in and most qualified in. So I went and found something else, abit lower down the pecking order than I would have got in finance, but an entry into a different field and new skills. I think a lot of people expect careers to always go along or upwards these days, sometimes you've got to take a step back to go forwards though.

But tbh everything about that family irritates me.

supersonic

Daz555 wrote:

supersonic wrote:

A lot of ill people do not get the benefits they deserve.

This.

My mother worked for 40 years. In her mid 50s she suffered from oesteoperosis - broke her shoulder, both collar bones, pelvis and even spine in several falls over those years. She was of course left unable to work. Well in summary she got relatively feck all in benefits. Certainly not enough to keep a roof over her head. If it were not for me picking up the mortgage and her bills in her later years she would have been poverty stricken and homeless. Utterly shocking after a lifetime paying taxes - what for you wonder?

When I hear about benefit spongers and scammers it makes my blood boil. Utter scum the lot of them. :evil:

My Dad was retired by his doctor on grounds of ill health - he suffers from extreme peripheral arterial disease, insulin dependant diabetes, has had a quad heart bypass, femoral artery bypass graft and now requires a heart transplant as there are no grafts left (3 arteries to the heart blocked, the other at 50%). With hardly any blood to his legs he can hardly walk and has severe angina. Any effort could kill him.

Yet ATOS found him 100% fit for work and told him to go back, and that hes should use a wheel chair (he can't propel it, hell he can't even stand sometimes). He appealed and wrote to his MP, and after a wrangle they overturned their decision (a leading cardiac specialist wrote to the DWP and totally blasted them).

The system can screw the needy. The health tests now are extremely tough to pass. And the reason? ATOS and the DWP have set goals to get 1 million off ESA (old incapacity benefit). Problem is, many of these people do need it.

supersonic

And anxiety can be extremely disabling. I was diagnosed with pheochromocytoma in 2003 - look that one up ;-)

Northwind

supersonic wrote:

The system can screw the needy. The health tests now are extremely tough to pass. And the reason? ATOS and the DWP have set goals to get 1 million off ESA (old incapacity benefit). Problem is, many of these people do need it.

Aye... They're running it more like a sales target than anything else, it's a totally inappropriate approach. And the real kicker is that lots of the people getting the shaft, are people who're least able to fight back.

colt

It seems this thread has turned far too serious for the crudcatcher so here you go,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA9t61PuiDc

Being from Wolverhampton I seem to see an awful lot of 'Doreens' walking about!

El Zomba

supersonic wrote:

My Dad was retired by his doctor on grounds of ill health - he suffers from extreme peripheral arterial disease, insulin dependant diabetes, has had a quad heart bypass, femoral artery bypass graft and now requires a heart transplant as there are no grafts left (3 arteries to the heart blocked, the other at 50%). With hardly any blood to his legs he can hardly walk and has severe angina. Any effort could kill him.

Yet ATOS found him 100% fit for work and told him to go back, and that hes should use a wheel chair (he can't propel it, hell he can't even stand sometimes). He appealed and wrote to his MP, and after a wrangle they overturned their decision (a leading cardiac specialist wrote to the DWP and totally blasted them).

The system can screw the needy. The health tests now are extremely tough to pass. And the reason? ATOS and the DWP have set goals to get 1 million off ESA (old incapacity benefit). Problem is, many of these people do need it.

The same thing happened to my old man. He was a builder by trade until a combination of arthritis in his hands and nerve damage from a recurring back injury forced him to retire due to ill health about two years ago. He was also found 100% fit to work. It took letters from the specialist who removed a collapsed disc from his neck, a Physiotherapist and a GP (who, to no great surprise, initially refused to add his two penneth until the specialist wrote to him as well) to get the decision overturned on appeal.

It would seem that they pretty much cancel any claim to benefits as part of the assessment process because it's a quick and dirty way of weeding out the less resolute, regardless of whether they have a legitimate claim to support or not.

chez_m356

mak3m wrote:

actually there are 2.68 million people on jobseekers allowance.

the total of working age people in the uk not in employment and living on state stands at 13.1 million as of nov 11

got no problem with the 2.68 they are activley seeking work

JSA only lasts for a short period of time, then you get put on income support, regardless of how many years you've paid your contributions for, and wasn't there something recently about x amount of millions paid out to illegal immigrants thats supposedly aren't entitled to benefits, nice to know where my taxes are really going, god bless the united kingdom of armitage shanks

benpinnick

Northwind wrote:

bwfc4eva868 wrote:

Honestly I think once you've applied for a hundred jobs and never even had an interview, you can be excused a bit of giving up.

While your unemployed your only job should to be to get a job. The longer the joblessness goes on, the lower your job expectation needs to be. At some point, your expectations and a job will meet, and you can be gainfully employed again. People think that holding out for the right job is the best option. My experience is the opposite. I wouldn't employ someone who was only applying for jobs that they 'want', and keeping themselves out of the market for work as a result, as they clearly have far too high regard for themselves and would rather sponge off the state than get a job in the meantime.

Fantastic Mr Fox

I can excuse someone coming into unemployment in the last 3 years and not being able to find a job to a certain extent as the job market hasn't been brilliant. However, although the economy has become 6% smaller, 94% of it is still there so there are still plenty of jobs to be found.

To have not found a job in the last 10 years, through a strong economy is just pure laziness. They must have known about the conditions they where living in when they had there forth child, so its there own fault that they don't have enough room for them.

Having graduated from Uni with a degree in business studies, I managed to get a job straight away although it is totally unrelated to my degree and I'm on a low wage (14k as a maintenance man) it is still a job. Living in south Devon its unlikely I'll be able to find a suitable grad scheme in my area that doesn't have less than 5000 applicants! I'm constantly applying for unrelated jobs with a few extra perks than the one I have now in the hope that working for a larger organisation I will be able to work my way up to a better position and utilize my degree and skills in some other way. I do know people that have left uni and refuse to work in a normal job, as they feel they're too good for it. Its crazy, people need to face reality.

As well it doesn't help that lots of companies offer unpaid internships in places like London. How on earth is someone in my circumstances going to be able to afford to live in London without being paid for 6 months and not even have a job at the end of it?

I think the government should issue vouchers that can be used for utilities, rent, food basic clothing and transport that can't be used for Sky, cigarettes or alcohol. There would be an incentive to work!

cooldad

benpinnick wrote:

Northwind wrote:

bwfc4eva868 wrote:

Honestly I think once you've applied for a hundred jobs and never even had an interview, you can be excused a bit of giving up.

While your unemployed your only job should to be to get a job. The longer the joblessness goes on, the lower your job expectation needs to be. At some point, your expectations and a job will meet, and you can be gainfully employed again. People think that holding out for the right job is the best option. My experience is the opposite. I wouldn't employ someone who was only applying for jobs that they 'want', and keeping themselves out of the market for work as a result, as they clearly have far too high regard for themselves and would rather sponge off the state than get a job in the meantime.

This is true. I've moved around the world a bit and each time have taken a quick but not ideal job. Always found a decent one fairly quickly - much easier to get a job if you are employed.

Northwind

benpinnick wrote:

While your unemployed your only job should to be to get a job. The longer the joblessness goes on, the lower your job expectation needs to be. At some point, your expectations and a job will meet, and you can be gainfully employed again.

Again- too many jobseekers, not enough jobs. Racing to the bottom isn't the answer.

cooldad

Being unemployed is the bottom.

benpinnick

cooldad wrote:

Being unemployed is the bottom.

Exactly. When considering job applicants for my place not having a job counts against you, having any job counts for you. Like cd says, it's not a race to the bottom, any job is an upward move from unemployment, some people seem incapable of figuring this out though.

Fantastic Mr Fox

No but I've been unemployed for the last 3 years, any job under 40k is simple beneath me.

cooldad

Fantastic Mr Fox wrote:

I managed to get a job straight away although it is totally unrelated to my degree and I'm on a low wage (14k as a maintenance man) it is still a job.

Repeat after me - must concentrate when trolling.

chez_m356

cooldad wrote:

Fantastic Mr Fox wrote:

I managed to get a job straight away although it is totally unrelated to my degree and I'm on a low wage (14k as a maintenance man) it is still a job.

Repeat after me - must concentrate when trolling.

well he is one of those 'morons' (his own words not mine) that watches Top Gear

Fantastic Mr Fox

cooldad wrote:

Fantastic Mr Fox wrote:

I managed to get a job straight away although it is totally unrelated to my degree and I'm on a low wage (14k as a maintenance man) it is still a job.

Repeat after me - must concentrate when trolling.

It twas a joke actually, as I'd posted 3 before that.

I have not trolled once on here in the last few months.

Now that you know it was a joke, I expect you're laughing uncontrollably.

benpinnick

(tumbleweed)

Northwind

benpinnick wrote:

Exactly. When considering job applicants for my place not having a job counts against you, having any job counts for you. Like cd says, it's not a race to the bottom, any job is an upward move from unemployment, some people seem incapable of figuring this out though.

Unfortunately it is- because as I might have mentioned, there AREN'T ENOUGH JOBS. So just saying "Have lower expectations" is not an answer.

cooldad

There only has to be one job. The important thing is to get it.

mak3m

Northwind wrote:

mak3m wrote:

the total of working age people in the uk not in employment and living on state stands at 13.1 million as of nov 11

got no problem with the 2.68 they are activley seeking work

its the rest of them the "ive got to many kids to work" "my anxitey makes it impossible to hold down a job" "if I have a job who will walk my dog" etc etc etc

Aye, that's not such a useful figure since it includes all sorts of folks who shouldn't be considered jobseeking or "unemployed", frinstance nonworking parents claiming child benefit make up a huge part of it. It also includes carers and long-term sick (being a full-time carer is harder work than I've ever done, and they get piss-all for it). And sure, some folk on the sick are chancing it but not all, and it's pretty hard to rule out the chancers without either spending a fortune, or cutting people off who need it.

What's wrong with "my anxiety makes it impossible to hold down a job?" You don't think that can be true? I interviewed a guy who collapsed midway through the interview with a full-on panic attack, poor sod- he'd not worked for 2 years, ours was the first interview he'd had and his brain exploded. I'd have loved to have given him a chance but really, we'd have had to be daft to take him on. Now that boy was fit to work, and doing his best, but competing with able bodied people for jobs, he was only ever going to lose out.

agree it was a rushed response as im busy at work this week.

appreciate that the 13.1 million is made up of a whole host of people who deserve and require the welfare state to support/help them.

howeverfor every person deserving of the benefits this country supplies there are 5 who are abusing the system.

Mrs Maks worked for the Benefits Agency for years. The civil service pay was so bad her colleagues with kids were on benefits and scraping by. This really helped motivating her through the queues of people lining up to get a take home effectivly 3 to 4 times her own, by breeding and playing the system. Her opinion was that 75% of the people she dealt with were lifers born into benefit to die on benefit not contributing to society one bite just providing it with another generation of takers. She worked in the sunderland office at the start of her career and finally had enough working in the coventry office. Two different parts of the country both with the same class of people.

i also agree that mental illness is a growing problem and have interviewed a number of borderline cases myself a couple of years back. Im guilty of generalising in the first post but I ment it in the context of benefit scroungers, nerves/anxiety is the new bad back. Benefits agency cottoned on to bad backs, notoriously difficult for a doctor to say one way or another, by sending undercovers staff to video and photograph them playing beach volleyball etc etc when they were to ill to work. The breeders got wise and started using anxiety and depression as the new bad back. Cant prove them wrong and hey if you catch them smiling you got them on a good day and will be sued for knocking back their progress.

breeders are growing faster than any other group, just a matter of time before the whole system collapses.

Northwind

cooldad wrote:

There only has to be one job. The important thing is to get it.

You're right enough, all 2 million jobseekers will just share that 1 job, sorted.

benpinnick

Northwind wrote:

cooldad wrote:

There only has to be one job. The important thing is to get it.

You're right enough, all 2 million jobseekers will just share that 1 job, sorted.

I think you're applying the logic that all 2 million unemployed are in fact chasing the job. There is a certain percentage that are workshy lazy gits with no intention of taking any job, which discounts a big number, then apply the fact that the 'number of jobs' is an irrelevant number made up by the govt. from the job openings they know about, not whats actually out there, and you probably find the situation isnt as bad as it seems.

sheepsteeth

Northwind wrote:

cooldad wrote:

There only has to be one job. The important thing is to get it.

You're right enough, all 2 million jobseekers will just share that 1 job, sorted.

even if they could share a job, 90 percent* of those lazy cunts wouldnt.

*estimated figure**
**actual figure will most likely be considerably higher

Northwind

supersonic

The problem with the DWP is that there is no inbetween - score 14 points on the test and you could be deemed as fit as an athlete. Score 15, as fit to work as a coma patient.

There is supposed to be a supported work group, but as mentioned previously, almost everyone fails and many people cannot appeal as don't know how or are too ill to do so.

More needs to be done to help people who are in the middle find suitable employment with an employer who is sympathetic.

I have had many health problems and in the past have had to rely on sickness benefits. However there are periods of time when I was better than others, or the symptoms were intermittent. The instability made it impossible to hold a job down. A lot of illnesses are like this - ME, MS, and so on. Illness and feeling ill can be disabling, but being disabled may not mean you feel ill.

The efforts at the moment by the government are poor, and are not getting the support to people who need it most. Many may be able to work but cannot do certain things or hours, or are deemed 100% fit when they plainly cannot work full time.