Cleat position advice

knack-knees

Ive been cycling about 6 months now with spd shoes/pedals but I'm getting the fabled IT issue which is becoming a problem.

It can start around 10 minutes into a ride (I typically do 40 mile rides) but it doesn't cause an issue until towards the end of the ride when it is painful. When I get back home climbing stairs are painful, following morning no problem.

I'm assuming that the culprit is cleat position (saddle height changes didn't improve anything). Is there anyone who has had this problem and found how to fix it, through changing cleat position?

Ps - I've been runner for many years and have shoes setup for over pronation. Don't really want to go through adding shims. But I've got to fix it as I can't add more miles onto the ride.

alihisgreat

two potential causes

-Shoe is too close to crank (move cleat towards inside of shoe)
-Foot rotated too far inwards (rotate cleat)


if not you need to get a professional fit done -> probably worth going for the whole thing whilst you're there, and they can fit shims, insoles etc.



there are also stretches you can do to relieve the injury (google IT band stretches).. need to sort out the source of the injury too though.

cashy16

i cant offer a solution but I was going to ask a similar question, im new to road riding and have fitted the cleats at a zero setting on the shoes, im trying this to see how it goes. I have no idea if i ahve ot the right place or not.......

Also need advice on general riding posture to make sure I have the seat and bars at the right height etc.......

bianchimoon

I had similar problem with left IT band, using the bikefit system wedges bought online for £25 ish just about fixed the problem for me, easy to fit and gave a lot more comfort as it evened the pressure out on the sole of my left foot

liquor box

cashy16 wrote:

i cant offer a solution but I was going to ask a similar question, im new to road riding and have fitted the cleats at a zero setting on the shoes, im trying this to see how it goes. I have no idea if i ahve ot the right place or not.......

Also need advice on general riding posture to make sure I have the seat and bars at the right height etc.......

I moved my cleats back a little bit (3-5mm) and seemd to get more power up a hill from a sitting position

StorckSpeed

I had IT problems around 10 years ago, this was before it became a widely known issue. It took around 2 years for a physio to diagnose this as the problem. I used to get a slight twinge on the side of my knee when cycling, but generally after cycling I was relatively pain free. (unless I'd taken in part in a TT, in that case I was in agony after it)Climbing and going down stairs was painful, driving was painful etc.
I'm not 100% convinced that SPD cleats were the problem and unless someone knows differently I'm not convinced that this is always the cause of people's IT band problems. I found that when I stopped cycling and began commuting by car 100% of the time the issue became worse and put this down to the fact that I had sold an Automatic car and bought a manual, just before the issue began to surface.
Anyway, I was given a series of stretches to do by the Physio to stretch the IT band and after around 3-4 months regularly performing the stretches the pain eased and I could get to normal. I took time away from cycling to begin with as I was convinced that this was the issue and when I returned to cycling only cycled gently and avoided putting in serious efforts. I've now been cycling pain free for around 7 years and haven't really changed my cycling position, although I do tend to use touring SPD pedals and mountain shoes most of the time only using Look pedals when performing in a TT.
If you have knee/IT band problems seek all the help you can. Get a bike fit if possible, see a physio and hopefully you'll get rid of the problem sooner rather than later.

EarlyGo

cashy16,

I'd recommend you get down to your LBS for some advice pronto! Just attaching the cleats at a neutral setting is a complete guess as to the angles you need. If you ride lots and/or put in big efforts with incorrectly set up cleats you will sooner or later knacker your knees, etc. There's also loads of advice on t'interweb just Google 'cleat set up guide'.

Regards, EarlyGo

knack-knees

thanks Storck - sensible stuff.

I'll try the cleat position first, I just sense that the angle of the foot when clipped in isn't perhaps quite correct.

FWIW on the right spd it has quite a bit of play in it, I might do this for the left side at least then that gives me some lateral movement.

If that fails then I need to think about a bike fit but I'm not a full on cyclist just yet.

MattC59

bianchimoon wrote:

I had similar problem with left IT band, using the bikefit system wedges bought online for £25 ish just about fixed the problem for me, easy to fit and gave a lot more comfort as it evened the pressure out on the sole of my left foot

+1
Can't recommend the wedges highly enough. I had the same ITB problem and the wedges solved the issue immediately.
Have a look at this link, read the info on the rest of the site and buy some wedges. I'd put money on it solving your ITB issue.
http://www.bikefittingtools.com/index.php?page=bfs-wedges-1-x-pack-8

I've just done a quick search, and here's the post I wrote a while back about the issue:

MattC59 wrote:

I suffered from the same problem (assuming it's ITB syndrome).

Until a few weeks ago, I was getting pain right at the base of my back, right where it joins my pelvis, but more noticably, pain on the outside of each knee, just where the tendon joins the lumpy bit (not to get too technical ) This would kick in after about 15-20 miles. I bought some wedges from cyclefit:
http://www.bikefittingtools.com/index.php?page=bfs-wedges-1-x-pack-8

Most people promate to an extent, ie when you put your foot down, you tend to place it slightly on the outside first. Have a look at the heels of your normal shoes, you'll probably find that they are worn slightly towards the outside. Pedals and cleats, although they have float, hold your foot flat and don't allow for the slight angle. As you pedal, it forces your knee and pelvis slightly out of alignment, causing knee and back pain. The wedges correct this and allow your leg to move in alignment.

I pronate slightly, so I put one wedge on each shoe, the thick edge of the wedge towards the inside edge of the shoe. Guess what, no back or knee pain. Not just less pain, none !!

To be honest, this has to be the best cycling purchase I've made. The pain has gone, my pedal stroke seems more efficient, and I appear to be able to go faster and further.

Have a look at how your foot strikes the ground, if it's not completely flat (which is rare) you may well benefit.

The image below shows pronation and supination. The image below is a left foot.



When you pedal, ideally your knee should track in a vertical plane. I'd bet that it moves from left to right, as it does with most of us. The wedges will help to correct this, improving your efficiency and taking stress away from the knee.

Read the web site and buy some wedges, I bet you find they help !!!

MattC59

EarlyGo wrote:

cashy16,

I'd recommend you get down to your LBS for some advice pronto! Just attaching the cleats at a neutral setting is a complete guess as to the angles you need. If you ride lots and/or put in big efforts with incorrectly set up cleats you will sooner or later knacker your knees, etc. There's also loads of advice on t'interweb just Google 'cleat set up guide'.

Regards, EarlyGo

Be careful about talking to your LBS if you have knee issues. If it's just cleat angle, then they will be able to help, but if you're in pain, then look else where, they're not doctors.

My LBS, who are generally miserable b*stards, (Pedal On Cycles) wanted nothing to do with the issue when I spoke asked them about insoles to help with foot alighment. They (quite rudely) pointed out that they were a bike shop, not a doctors, and couldnt' advise. Which is fair, I suppose, but if that's the case, dont' sell different types of foot beds ! :roll:

EarlyGo

MattC59,

My reply was to cashy16, not the OP.

Regards, EarlyGo

MattC59

EarlyGo wrote:

MattC59,

My reply was to cashy16, not the OP.

Regards, EarlyGo

oops, didn't see that

doubleoseven

To the OP. The best advice i was given almost 20 years ago..... Put your shoes on( obviously! ) and make sure the cleats are slightly loose-so they can be moved. Sit on a table/high stool etc and let your feet hang down naturally. I was told that where your feet are then pointing is your own body's natural foot angle. Get someone to adjust the cleats so they are parallel to each other/point straight ahead as they would be when clipped in. If no one is available to help you, stick a straight edge onto the bottoms of the cleats so you can see for yourself, ie a long pencil and a bit of blutac. I know it looks a bit silly, but the idea is to be able to see what angles the cleats are at whilst your feet are hanging free from the floor. Adjust as necessary.

Maybe i'm just lucky, but using that method has worked for me. hope that's of some help.

blackpoolkev

When I first started using SPD Shoes,I set the cleats so that the positioning of my foot resembled what I was used to without a clipless system,i.e. ball of the foot over the pedal axle.Over time I started to experience knee pain.
I then came across a thread here on Bike Radar that had a link to a very informative article suggesting that the ball of the foot should be in front of the pedal axle to help solve knee problems.
I figured that it was worth a try,it felt a little odd at first but I soon got used to it and it cured my knee problem.
Sorry but I can't recall the address that the link took me to,maybe some here is familiar with the article and could help?

Pigeons in flight

IT band problems have been the bain of my last 3 cycling years. It started when I returned to cycling after having 2 years doing v little and mainly running, due to having another wee un. I was back on the bike for about 3 months when I started getting a stinging pain in the outside of my left knee. I didnt do any stretching (not great given I was 40 at the time) and it got worse and worse until finally whilst doing the Northern Rock 100 mile Cyclone, my knee was in so much pain that I had to crawl back to Newcastle at about 10mph average.

I went to a physio and was given a variety of excersices to do, including foam roller ones - which are ridiculously painful for such a benign object!

The knee/ITB is now vastly improved, but still niggles. I find that I am fine with standard spd, but struggle with any road based pedal system - including speedplay. Bizarrely, I find that riding my fixie is the best therapy for it. No idea why - I would have thought it would have aggrevated it if anything?!

Evil Laugh

http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blo ... -position/

This may be the article?

knack-knees

Thanks guys.

To pigeons - your problem is a dead ringer for mine! I think I'll try the pencil idea and realign.

It's strange that the running never brought it up, but I did buy proper (fitted) shoes.

Doing 50 on Sat so will report back then.

PhildB

I will be buying my first clipless pedal and shoes soon, and have found this thread very interesting, as well as fitting guides, I think that point/post by Mattc59 makes perfect sense and is worth remembering if I find I have problems also

blackpoolkev

Evil Laugh wrote:

http://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/blog/2011/04/power-to-the-pedal-cleat-position/

This may be the article?

Indeed it is.

I thought it was a long shot that someone would recognize the article,given the flimsy clues.Well played!

Evil Laugh

Haha, I've had a fit done by a guy trained by him and had my cleats moved to this position. Felt a little weird at first but def works and makes a lot of sense to me at least, makes a big difference when putting a lot of power through the pedals and when standing up.

There is a wealth of good info on his site if you have time to read through it all. Personally like his blogs a lot.