Pedalling Technique

ilm_zero7

+1 2FR!

BruceG

oldwelshman wrote:

BruceG wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

Just pedal !!

It may sound silly but try to pedal in circles, you dont necessarily need to pull up with your trailiing leg to do this just follow through the movement completing the circle; this smooths the circle.
not thinking about it.

This ^^^^^^^

probably what 99.99% of use do without thinking about it, the other 0.01% (scouse and the welsh guy) are busy concentrating on using an ineffcient pull system, however if it is good for them thats great

Bruce you really have no idea at all.
Maybe Chris HOy and Jason Kenny need your advice as both of them pulled out of their pedals last year even though they had double toe straps on, are you suggesting this was caused by the force of the other leg ushing on the pedal and causing the opposite foot to come out as you suggest no force is applied?
Have you never heard of anyone pulling out of their pedals during sprints or climbs and hard efforts? Are you saying this is not due to the effort from pulling up? If not how to you explain the foot comeing out?
If you suggest that this force does not contribute to forward momentum I suggest you try to climb a steep hill with flat pedals and time yourself, then repeat the climb in cleats.
Maybe you can also try this with a timed standing start 200m effort.
I would be interested to see your times

I DO NOT pull up on my pedals at all, I only use a push , I am only conscious of unweighting the pedal on the up stroke. And I have plenty of idea, if you search the net you will find loads of info and debate on this "marmite" of a subject. And having tried to conscioulsy pull on the upstroke and found it to be a total waste of time and effort, and indeed hindered my progress as I stopped using the more efficient and powerul push to full effect, I subscribe to the "hate it" camp. If messers Hoy and co, pulled out of double straps (this has nothing to do with clipless pedals being discussed), unless it was as a result of the strap breaking they must have pulled out at the bottom of the stroke, just as it transitions into the upstoke, therefore not pulling up. Ps its pushing not ushing, and coming not comeing

jgsi

BruceG wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

BruceG wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

Just pedal !!

It may sound silly but try to pedal in circles, you dont necessarily need to pull up with your trailiing leg to do this just follow through the movement completing the circle; this smooths the circle.
not thinking about it.

This ^^^^^^^

probably what 99.99% of use do without thinking about it, the other 0.01% (scouse and the welsh guy) are busy concentrating on using an ineffcient pull system, however if it is good for them thats great

Bruce you really have no idea at all.
Maybe Chris HOy and Jason Kenny need your advice as both of them pulled out of their pedals last year even though they had double toe straps on, are you suggesting this was caused by the force of the other leg ushing on the pedal and causing the opposite foot to come out as you suggest no force is applied?
Have you never heard of anyone pulling out of their pedals during sprints or climbs and hard efforts? Are you saying this is not due to the effort from pulling up? If not how to you explain the foot comeing out?
If you suggest that this force does not contribute to forward momentum I suggest you try to climb a steep hill with flat pedals and time yourself, then repeat the climb in cleats.
Maybe you can also try this with a timed standing start 200m effort.
I would be interested to see your times

I DO NOT pull up on my pedals at all, I only use a push , I am only conscious of unweighting the pedal on the up stroke. And I have plenty of idea, if you search the net you will find loads of info and debate on this "marmite" of a subject. And having tried to conscioulsy pull on the upstroke and found it to be a total waste of time and effort, and indeed hindered my progress as I stopped using the more efficient and powerul push to full effect, I subscribe to the "hate it" camp. If messers Hoy and co, pulled out of double straps (this has nothing to do with clipless pedals being discussed), unless it was as a result of the strap breaking they must have pulled out at the bottom of the stroke, just as it transitions into the upstoke, therefore not pulling up. Ps its pushing not ushing, and coming not comeing

You are going to a lot of trouble in this.. don't know why.

From a personal point of view the few times when I am position to give it some at the end of a race (admittedly rare), I do accelerate in a larger gear with as much force as I can muster all the way round... my cleat/ pedal system allows me to and I want to create speed 360 degrees.. mostly to no avail, however.

oh, only keyboard warriors pull up on spelling...

Tom Dean

thescouselander wrote:

Not at all - there is no requirement for the forces to be equal. When you calculate the turning moment about the crank axel the two forces will sum together no matter how asymmetric they are.

Try it yourself:



The moment about A = (F1 x L/2) + (-F2 x - L/2)

The diagram is a bit confusing, why label the forces or crank lengths + or - ? it looks like L = L/2 - L/2.

Your point is obviously correct though

It doesn't seem clear that pedalling technique has a significant effect on power or efficiency. Even less so that this is something worth training to improve.

Personally if I had some lack of smoothness that I thought was holding me back, I would first make sure my position and bike fit were absolutely nailed. I suspect this might solve 90% of the technique 'problems' people have.

BruceG

Here is another interesting viewpoint that may add to the debate, oh and someone asked why I was going to so much bother, not really going to much bother just a little concerned to see newcomers being given potentially damaging advice which could lead to them being put off cycling, and the keyboard warrior snipe is just plan daft, the point was if you are going to respond in a sarcastic manner, ensure at least that the spelling is correct!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNpvASJDpms

ilm_zero7

BRUCEG
as I posted before:

ILM Zero7 wrote:

CiB wrote:

Don't pull your trailing foot on the upstroke. It doesn't work and your knees aren't designed for it. Enjoy the short rest.

dont listen to this - - thats rubbish., the pull up is a valid part of both climbing and sprinting technique

nobody is saying the pull up compensates or is anything like the effort of the 'push' but it adds a little more force at a key moment - climbing over a bridge for me this morning for example.

Because I don't think pulling up is incorrect for peak efforts, I really don't think this is "potentially damaging advice", but maybe the heal down pedal to add variation to the peddling action of a climb would be too?

Curiously this is in the road beginners section, where even though many have been cycling for several years we still post because we have things to learn and things to offer newbies. I dont come close to the experience of Oldwelshman but if you look at his comments and experience, I think you might need to reconsider!

rick_chasey

Ultimately, it's a pedalling action right? There's only so much you can do. It's not like running, where there are plenty of variations.

I found work on my singlespeed/fixie where I worked to really 'spin' the pedals, i.e. turn my legs around rather than just pushing down feels like it helps a lot. Whether it does I don't know.

The sensation you have is also related to your cadence. It's hard not to just stamp when you're grinding away at it, just as it's hard to stamp when you're spinning at 150rpm.

Either way, I believe the trailing leg is supposed to be 'unweighted'. I.e. you lift your foot up enough that your active leg isn't pushing down against the weight of your other foot/leg.

roger_merriman

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ultimately, it's a pedalling action right? There's only so much you can do. It's not like running, where there are plenty of variations.

I found work on my singlespeed/fixie where I worked to really 'spin' the pedals, i.e. turn my legs around rather than just pushing down feels like it helps a lot. Whether it does I don't know.

The sensation you have is also related to your cadence. It's hard not to just stamp when you're grinding away at it, just as it's hard to stamp when you're spinning at 150rpm.

Either way, I believe the trailing leg is supposed to be 'unweighted'. I.e. you lift your foot up enough that your active leg isn't pushing down against the weight of your other foot/leg.

certianly new riders who just pump the pedals look uncomftable i'm thinking on the weekend in Richmound Park.

Any performce gains with pulling up are marginal at best, and need to be seperated out from the gains by wearing stiff soled shoes and decent pedlals be they flats or clipless or what ever.

MTBing in mud will tendto curb stomping tendances at lower RPM! or you'll end up walking though the gloop while your mates have dry feet.

BruceG

ILM Zero7 wrote:

BRUCEG
as I posted before:

ILM Zero7 wrote:

CiB wrote:

Don't pull your trailing foot on the upstroke. It doesn't work and your knees aren't designed for it. Enjoy the short rest.

dont listen to this - - thats rubbish., the pull up is a valid part of both climbing and sprinting technique

nobody is saying the pull up compensates or is anything like the effort of the 'push' but it adds a little more force at a key moment - climbing over a bridge for me this morning for example.

Because I don't think pulling up is incorrect for peak efforts, I really don't think this is "potentially damaging advice", but maybe the heal down pedal to add variation to the peddling action of a climb would be too?

Curiously this is in the road beginners section, where even though many have been cycling for several years we still post because we have things to learn and things to offer newbies. I dont come close to the experience of Oldwelshman but if you look at his comments and experience, I think you might need to reconsider!

Why? Just because someone been doing something for a long time doesnt automaticaaly corellate that they have been doing it correctly for all that time, and i stand by my point that it is utter nonsense to suggest that pulling up on the pedals constitutes a good technique for general riding, and due to its inefficiences can be damaging to suggest thus to a newcomer

jibberish

I switched off a little bit during this thread as there's lots of "do this" followed by "don't do this". The one thing I'd recommend is also checking your seat height. Sounds silly - but does make a difference to pedalling. Take your seat as high as possible and try it - if it's too high, lower to the point where it feels right. :-)

thescouselander

Tom Dean wrote:

thescouselander wrote:

Not at all - there is no requirement for the forces to be equal. When you calculate the turning moment about the crank axel the two forces will sum together no matter how asymmetric they are.

Try it yourself:



The moment about A = (F1 x L/2) + (-F2 x - L/2)

The diagram is a bit confusing, why label the forces or crank lengths + or - ? it looks like L = L/2 - L/2.

Your point is obviously correct though

It doesn't seem clear that pedalling technique has a significant effect on power or efficiency. Even less so that this is something worth training to improve.

Personally if I had some lack of smoothness that I thought was holding me back, I would first make sure my position and bike fit were absolutely nailed. I suspect this might solve 90% of the technique 'problems' people have.

Sorry, I put the diagram together fairly quickly so it might not be too clear. L is the crank diameter to L/2 is the crank length - effectively you could ignore L if you like because the usual measurement for cranks size is the crank length (L/2). Maybe I'll change the picture.

The reasons for the +/- signs are as follows.

1) Since we are taking the moment about A that is the datum point at 0 distance. All points to the right are positive and all points to the left are negative.

2) For the forces, all forces downwards are positive in this case and all upwards forces are negative since they are in the opposite direction.

I dont think this demonstrates pulling up on the pedal is more efficient but it does demonstrate the forces add together so if you can pull up on the pedal (even a bit) it should contribute something to the power assuming the act of pulling up with one foot doesn't reduce power in the other.

oldwelshman

BruceG wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

BruceG wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

Just pedal !!

It may sound silly but try to pedal in circles, you dont necessarily need to pull up with your trailiing leg to do this just follow through the movement completing the circle; this smooths the circle.
not thinking about it.

This ^^^^^^^

probably what 99.99% of use do without thinking about it, the other 0.01% (scouse and the welsh guy) are busy concentrating on using an ineffcient pull system, however if it is good for them thats great

Bruce you really have no idea at all.
Maybe Chris HOy and Jason Kenny need your advice as both of them pulled out of their pedals last year even though they had double toe straps on, are you suggesting this was caused by the force of the other leg ushing on the pedal and causing the opposite foot to come out as you suggest no force is applied?
Have you never heard of anyone pulling out of their pedals during sprints or climbs and hard efforts? Are you saying this is not due to the effort from pulling up? If not how to you explain the foot comeing out?
If you suggest that this force does not contribute to forward momentum I suggest you try to climb a steep hill with flat pedals and time yourself, then repeat the climb in cleats.
Maybe you can also try this with a timed standing start 200m effort.
I would be interested to see your times

I DO NOT pull up on my pedals at all, I only use a push , I am only conscious of unweighting the pedal on the up stroke. And I have plenty of idea, if you search the net you will find loads of info and debate on this "marmite" of a subject. And having tried to conscioulsy pull on the upstroke and found it to be a total waste of time and effort, and indeed hindered my progress as I stopped using the more efficient and powerul push to full effect, I subscribe to the "hate it" camp. If messers Hoy and co, pulled out of double straps (this has nothing to do with clipless pedals being discussed), unless it was as a result of the strap breaking they must have pulled out at the bottom of the stroke, just as it transitions into the upstoke, therefore not pulling up. Ps its pushing not ushing, and coming not comeing

Wow is this still going ?
Thanks for pointing out my spelling mistakes as I find it difficult typing on a mobile with an xtremely small keyboard, you should see some of the emails I send !!!
As for Mr Hoy pulling out at the bottom of the stroke, this is not the case. Nearly all riders doing a gate start will position their cranks in line with the down tube to get most efficient start.
Forget all the drawings and intelrnet links, just try as I sugegsted with two types of pedals and post your times so we can see your results, if your statements are true I expect to see exactly the same times for whatever pedals you use.

BruceG

oldwelshman wrote:

BruceG wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

BruceG wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

Just pedal !!

It may sound silly but try to pedal in circles, you dont necessarily need to pull up with your trailiing leg to do this just follow through the movement completing the circle; this smooths the circle.
not thinking about it.

This ^^^^^^^

probably what 99.99% of use do without thinking about it, the other 0.01% (scouse and the welsh guy) are busy concentrating on using an ineffcient pull system, however if it is good for them thats great

Bruce you really have no idea at all.
Maybe Chris HOy and Jason Kenny need your advice as both of them pulled out of their pedals last year even though they had double toe straps on, are you suggesting this was caused by the force of the other leg ushing on the pedal and causing the opposite foot to come out as you suggest no force is applied?
Have you never heard of anyone pulling out of their pedals during sprints or climbs and hard efforts? Are you saying this is not due to the effort from pulling up? If not how to you explain the foot comeing out?
If you suggest that this force does not contribute to forward momentum I suggest you try to climb a steep hill with flat pedals and time yourself, then repeat the climb in cleats.
Maybe you can also try this with a timed standing start 200m effort.
I would be interested to see your times

I DO NOT pull up on my pedals at all, I only use a push , I am only conscious of unweighting the pedal on the up stroke. And I have plenty of idea, if you search the net you will find loads of info and debate on this "marmite" of a subject. And having tried to conscioulsy pull on the upstroke and found it to be a total waste of time and effort, and indeed hindered my progress as I stopped using the more efficient and powerul push to full effect, I subscribe to the "hate it" camp. If messers Hoy and co, pulled out of double straps (this has nothing to do with clipless pedals being discussed), unless it was as a result of the strap breaking they must have pulled out at the bottom of the stroke, just as it transitions into the upstoke, therefore not pulling up. Ps its pushing not ushing, and coming not comeing

Wow is this still going ?
Thanks for pointing out my spelling mistakes as I find it difficult typing on a mobile with an xtremely small keyboard, you should see some of the emails I send !!!
As for Mr Hoy pulling out at the bottom of the stroke, this is not the case. Nearly all riders doing a gate start will position their cranks in line with the down tube to get most efficient start.
Forget all the drawings and intelrnet links, just try as I sugegsted with two types of pedals and post your times so we can see your results, if your statements are true I expect to see exactly the same times for whatever pedals you use.

No it isnt still going you were just VERY slow to respond, the previous post was dated 31/01/12 a week ago. Ps fully understand about the use of mobile keyboard I have the same issues, big hands small keyboard. And we have to agree to diagree about the pulling, as it seems, do many other look about you will see many arguments for and against. I guess it is just what suits the individual for me the losses far outweight the marginal gains so I wont be subscribing to it any day soon.