Benifits Cap at 26k

Frank the tank

Just from the way this thread is developing shows just how many issues there are when it comes to welfare reform.

I believe in the welfare state,but, it should be a safety net not a keep net.

Like any system there will be people that abuse it. What any government should do is have people target these issues be it benefits/taxes.

@mar_k I too, put long anti-social hours in at work (particularly when the young uns were growing up) to support my family and my family still went without regular hols. As for your bro' life is too short mate, I didn't speak to my dad for the last ten years of his life and while I feel totally justified in that stance, I wish that we could have reached a reconsilliation but it never happened.

ilm_zero7

whatever the cap - at least make them do something for it - picking up litter would be a start

daviesee

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Just read a good article in the Guardian here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ency-loans

Very good article. It shows that people are struggling to get by on very little.

Doesn't address the 26k/year though..............

Cleat Eastwood

What we need is

markos1963

I believe that much of the problem has come from the Tories, not the ones in power now but Thatcher and her cronies from the eighties. They were happy to put millions on the dole to further their battle against the Unions and the working classes. Putting people in their place as it were. Now we have the second and third generations of these people living on benefits. How can we blame them, they feel they have no future working for minimum wage in crap jobs so they stay on the dole just like their parents were forced to. Why should people born on an estate in Hackney or Islington be forced to move to Blackburn just because their landlord milks the system. It's a form of ethnic cleansing in my book and totally shameful.

daviesee

Right. I am done now.
Here goes.

The benefit system was set up, and is still intended, to be a safety net.

Anything above a 26k limit is well in excess what I would consider to be a safety net.

26k is not poor.

Anything more than that is just spouting, mis-direction and pontificating, of which I am more than culpable.

Over and out.

Alinshearah

The Benefits Cap -" Normally found on the Jeremy Kyle Show with Adidas written on the front "

verylonglegs

markos1963 wrote:

I believe that much of the problem has come from the Tories, not the ones in power now but Thatcher and her cronies from the eighties. They were happy to put millions on the dole to further their battle against the Unions and the working classes. Putting people in their place as it were. Now we have the second and third generations of these people living on benefits. How can we blame them, they feel they have no future working for minimum wage in crap jobs so they stay on the dole just like their parents were forced to. Why should people born on an estate in Hackney or Islington be forced to move to Blackburn just because their landlord milks the system. It's a form of ethnic cleansing in my book and totally shameful.

Well if you live in Norfolk you should be well aware people come here from all over Europe, some leaving their families behind, to work and earn money. Yet some people born on this island squeal like pigs at the suggestion of moving a hundred miles to find work. Why is that?

ddraver

markos1963 wrote:

I believe that much of the problem has come from the Tories, not the ones in power now but Thatcher and her cronies from the eighties. They were happy to put millions on the dole to further their battle against the Unions and the working classes. Putting people in their place as it were. Now we have the second and third generations of these people living on benefits. How can we blame them, they feel they have no future working for minimum wage in crap jobs so they stay on the dole just like their parents were forced to. Why should people born on an estate in Hackney or Islington be forced to move to Blackburn just because their landlord milks the system. It's a form of ethnic cleansing in my book and totally shameful.

Rubbish, its all everyone else's fault that they can't be arsed? Please!

There are plenty of people who work bloody hard to get out of that situation, there is no reason others can't! If you insist on living on benefits while making no effort to find work or support yourself then I have little sympathy. You certainly.can't whinge about where you get housed for free! It certainly not a form of ethnic cleansing, don't be silly!

Cleat Eastwood

markos1963 wrote:

It's a form of ethnic cleansing in my book and totally shameful.

It's interesting you use that phrase, thats the exact same phrase my CAB friend used - and she's on the frontline with people who are most affected.

She told me an interesting story a while back about a woman who was on benefits but found herself unable to paye her rent and she faced eviction. Now going by some of the right wing views on here she had it coming to her, no more than a sponger. She was represented by my mate in court and after reading the notes the judge said - 'it isn't the purpose of the law to put people on the streets", and it wasn't his intention as a servant of the law to do so now.' The woman wept in court. The right wingers on here are speaking from a position of fear and greed. I be so proud to live in a country where despite the petty hatred in society - a judge, a representative of the most abstract of our social binds - knows what it is to be just. Just a shame that can't be said for all.

ddraver

So there is no spectrum of housing between central London and the street in Cleat World is there?

Jez mon

Ethnic cleansing

"the mass expulsion or killing of members of one ethnic or religious group in an area by those of another."

AFIK being poor and jobless, is NOT an ethnic or religious group.

The job of the welfare state should be to provide some kind of safety net. A safety net, is not the same thing as a blank cheque to live where you want. Ultimately, if you're living in state funded accommodation, you have to surrender some amount of control over where you live. I'm not talking about the state rounding up the "vulnerable" and making them homeless. Just that I don't think you can realistically expect the state to pay for you live where you want, now the reality of this can be pretty nasty if not implemented carefully, but my definition of fair doesn't involve the state giving you free accommodation where you want.

Not to sound like a broken record, a big problem comes when private landlords are letting to people on housing benefit. As far as I can see, those on the benefit have little incentive to look for a cheaper deal and the private landlords can take advantage of this.

tim_wand

Qualified Nurse starting pay £20,225 before Tax and NI
Police officer starting pay £22104 before Tax and NI
Newly Qualified teacher Pay £21,588 before Tax and NI
Infantry Soldier average pay 21,000 before Tax and NI
Prison Officer start pay £14,690 before Tax and NI

PROPOSED BENEFITS CEILING CAP £26,000 NET = the equivalent of £35,000 Gross.

How can this possibly be fair? How does this incentivise people to work and make a contribution rather than take from the system those of us that work pay for?

We Cannot and Should not continue to maintain a system which pays out more in benefit than is collected in PAYE.

Its WRONG!!!!

mar-k W we all know people like your brother, but we are made to feel like fascists just by asking the simple question WHY and saying its not right.

MaxwellBygraves

tim wand wrote:

Qualified Nurse starting pay £20,225 before Tax and NI
Police officer starting pay £22104 before Tax and NI
Newly Qualified teacher Pay £21,588 before Tax and NI
Infantry Soldier average pay 21,000 before Tax and NI
Prison Officer start pay £14,690 before Tax and NI

PROPOSED BENEFITS CEILING CAP £26,000 NET = the equivalent of £35,000 Gross.

How can this possibly be fair? How does this incentivise people to work and make a contribution rather than take from the system those of us that work pay for?

We Cannot and Should not continue to maintain a system which pays out more in benefit than is collected in PAYE.

Its WRONG!!!!

mar-k W we all know people like your brother, but we are made to feel like fascists just by asking the simple question WHY and saying its not right.

You know, or at least you ought to know, that not only is wrong but it's rather callous to suggest that this 26K is the norm and that the receiver ever actually see's the money. Most people are not entitled, and nor do they claim for, this amount. And it's totally disingenuous to suggest that the money you receive from benefits all ends up in your current account so you can spend it on whatever you choose. When people receive a higher amount, in rare instances, like the situation you suggest the receiver won't see the money - it goes straight into the account of the private landlord. This often leaves the household with very little money to spend on all other essentials.

The real problem the government needs to address is the explosive inflation of private rents and the lack of a supply of social housing.

NickintheLakes

Mar_k - so much of your post resonates with me.

I do believe that as a caring society we should help those who genuinely cannot help themselves through sickness or disability and also those who are in difficult circumstances through no fault of their own. However.....

I also have a lazy ****ard brother who intentionally has not done a days work for 17 years. He has a council house (oooops, social housing facility), eats and drinks well, is presentably dressed and has just treated himself to a £3000 huge TV. How is this possible? Spends his whole life watching TV or trolling off to the library for more books to read and while his time away. Disgusting.

Stepson + girlfriend live in a council house and have 3 kids. Girlfriend worked for 2 DAYS when she was 16. She is now 27 and has not worked since. He does not work either. Nice little house, SKY on tap, kids wear 'labels', original stuff not fakes, they run a small (albeit old) car and somehow find £2000 a year to insure it. She gets extra benefits as she is depressed and has been for almost 10 years. She is no more frigging depressed than I am and in truth is a happy little bunny who knows how and when to act depressed.

My friends son: lives with a young lady who has an eating disorder (allegedly) and neither work yet they live in a council flat, run a car and are about to start a family as she is 'desperate' and wants at least 4.

Whilst I'm at it. WTC's for couples with kids. How can a couple with £300k in the bank and 2 houses worth £650k between them get a combined total of c£5k WTC's and Child Allowance per year. She has a part time job and his company is just ticking over and he pays himself a minimal salary each year. Seriously, how come?

NickintheLakes

The real problem the government needs to address is the explosive inflation of private rents and the lack of a supply of social housing.

The real problem is our ever expanding population and the fact that we incentivise people to have yet more kids.

verylonglegs

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

The real problem the government needs to address is the explosive inflation of private rents and the lack of a supply of social housing.

Would make sense if they actually wanted to tackle the root cause. The housing model in this country is daft with many seemingly having an over-whelming desire for higher prices. It seems an odd mentality to me as money tied up in housing or the purchase of it is a waste imo, it would by much better used on education, starting businesses or even just other goods and services but it's ingrained in the populace now as a sign of prosperity. Should put a ban on those endless property shows for a start.

tim_wand

Fair Comment Maxwell Bygraves I am not suggesting for one minute that there a large number of people out there trousering £26'000 pound and disposing of it at their whim.

Point is none the less there are a lot of people making no contribution who are more than likely able to who as individuals are costing this amount of money from the Public purse.

I agree we need more social housing, fair rent tribunials and the like to provide accomodation for the disadvantaged and the vulnerable which does not just benefit private land lords.

I work in social care setting for children, None of them are there as a result of there own fault. I have two siblings in my care who are from a family of 14 , all of who are in care (Its tragic) and I would in no way suggest that any support is removed from those kids, but a 52 week placement at my organisation costs £150,000 per child, and we are at the cheap end of the scale.

When are people going to start taking social responsibility and start looking at what they can do to contribute rather than what they are entitled to all the time.

griffsters

tim wand wrote:

When are people going to start taking social responsibility and start looking at what they can do to contribute rather than what they are entitled to all the time.

This is absolutely fundamental to what must, must change in our society. The sense of entitlement without any responsibility (not only financial) is rife and reaching tipping point. Action is required, but it will be painful for those who have made it a lifestyle choice, no doubt.

DrKJM

ILM Zero7 wrote:

whatever the cap - at least make them do something for it - picking up litter would be a start

Whilst this is superficially attractive it doesn't really bear examination. By forcing people to do work that, if it is needed should arguably be paid for properly, distorts the labour market. Not to mention the fact that forced labour is against the European Convention on Human Rights. (Lights blue touch paper).

There is some astonishingly muddled thinking on this thread. Not surprisingly, as the issues are complex which is why we've ended up in this mess in the first place.

So:

1. Just because some people screw the system doesn't mean there aren't also deserving cases out there.

2. 26K is a reasonable amount of money and some people in work don't earn that. That doesn't mean that some people in hardship don't need that amount for a 'decent' living. (Where decent means no longer in hardship)

3. Many people who earn less than 26K (after tax) get top up benefits if their personal circumstances demand it.

4. We should be VERY careful about advocating a system that penalises children for the sins of their parents.

Kevin

DrKJM

I should point out I count myself amongst the muddled.

bagpusscp

Hmm ..... I know it should keep out of politics...10p in the pound tax rise on all those earning over £40,000.This should help to build the council houses that both the two main parties have sold off over the last 35 years.Best peice of politcal engineering ever....have a mortage....best no strike policy any goverment can have.
Many young people have little hope of getting on the housing ladder.A house I bought in 1982 for £13,00 is now selling for £85,00 they had been as high as £100,000.Madness.I know we cannot go backwards on house prices because total collapse would follow.
Banks..tax them more? every bodies penions are invested here .Guess they have us all by the balls!!

oh and lets have some real commoners in the house of commons.Why do the people of this country keep voting for these people who are clearly NOT commoners!!!
Rant over....

NickintheLakes

but a 52 week placement at my organisation costs £150,000 per child, and we are at the cheap end of the scale.

How on earth does it cost £3k/week/child?

I have a distant friend who has 3 care homes for special needs kids - £196k pa / child.

He is very well off - taxpayers money!

jim453

How come Rick Chasey has not appeared yet.

He's always right about everything isn't he?

What with him being the worlds leading intellectual specialising in economic and social problems (and their solution).

What this thread really needs is a good healthy dose of Chasey's not smug at all correctness.

millymoose

bagpusscp wrote:

Hmm ..... I know it should keep out of politics...10p in the pound tax rise on all those earning over £40,000.This should help to build the council houses that both the two main parties have sold off over the last 35 years.Best peice of politcal engineering ever....have a mortage....best no strike policy any goverment can have.
Many young people have little hope of getting on the housing ladder.A house I bought in 1982 for £13,00 is now selling for £85,00 they had been as high as £100,000.Madness.I know we cannot go backwards on house prices because total collapse would follow.
Banks..tax them more? every bodies penions are invested here .Guess they have us all by the balls!!

oh and lets have some real commoners in the house of commons.Why do the people of this country keep voting for these people who are clearly NOT commoners!!!
Rant over....

10p more for >£40k, great then I can claim some tax credit! Banks tax them more on what exactly? Don't forget all the PAYE paid by the 1 million plus people employed by the banks. Tax the banks more + more redundancies ergo more JSA, more benefits etc etc!

ddraver

jim453 wrote:

How come Rick Chasey has not appeared yet.

He's always right about everything isn't he?

What with him being the worlds leading intellectual specialising in economic and social problems (and their solution).

What this thread really needs is a good healthy dose of Chasey's not smug at all correctness.

You re a fan then?

bagpusscp

millymoose wrote:

bagpusscp wrote:

Hmm ..... I know it should keep out of politics...10p in the pound tax rise on all those earning over £40,000.This should help to build the council houses that both the two main parties have sold off over the last 35 years.Best peice of politcal engineering ever....have a mortage....best no strike policy any goverment can have.
Many young people have little hope of getting on the housing ladder.A house I bought in 1982 for £13,00 is now selling for £85,00 they had been as high as £100,000.Madness.I know we cannot go backwards on house prices because total collapse would follow.
Banks..tax them more? every bodies penions are invested here .Guess they have us all by the balls!!

oh and lets have some real commoners in the house of commons.Why do the people of this country keep voting for these people who are clearly NOT commoners!!!
Rant over....

10p more for >£40k, great then I can claim some tax credit! Banks tax them more on what exactly? Don't forget all the PAYE paid by the 1 million plus people employed by the banks. Tax the banks more + more redundancies ergo more JSA, more benefits etc etc!

Please note my :?: mark re taxing the Banks..I said this as it seems to be the flavour of the month in some circle's. Moving on the news headlines say the national debt has now passed 1 trillon ££££££££££££££ :!: oh and £40 million has been won on the euro lottery maybe the goverment should by lottery tickets.

piquet

Cressers wrote:

The £26K or beyond is only in exceptional circumstances. The rich b*stards would like the tabloid readers to think it is the norm, but it isn't.

in that case few will feel the impact?

piquet

CiB wrote:

mar_k wrote:

Your tale - taken at face value - reinforces the point that for some people living a comfy lifestyle paid for by state benefits is an option. I'd like to see the option to live that lifestyle made less attractive, which is what IDS is trying to do..

Two tales:

1 My daughter is struggling to get a set of decent a -levels, get to Uni and get a job. A primary school classmate is also 17, skipped school from age 13/14, is unemployed, married with a baby and an unemployed 18 year old husband - living a comfortable life in a council flat.

2 Daughter of a friend, age 26 or so, left Uni never really tried to get a graduate job, lived with boyfriend. Is now a single mum in a brand new (she is first tenant) housing association flat. Dad has sufficient income and space for her to move back home if they chose.

Neither will be hit by the 26k cap, but both are living a chosen lifestyle funded by benefits

jim453

ddraver wrote:

jim453 wrote:

How come Rick Chasey has not appeared yet.

He's always right about everything isn't he?

What with him being the worlds leading intellectual specialising in economic and social problems (and their solution).

What this thread really needs is a good healthy dose of Chasey's not smug at all correctness.

You re a fan then?

I'm only having a laugh, he's got a sense of humour I'm sure he can take it. Even if he can't he can always fall back on the fact that he's never been wrong about anything.

Ever.

I am interested in where he is though. This is exactly the type of thread that he likes to post on whilst at work. Holiday perhaps?