Shane Warne

phy2sll2

What a prat. :roll:

http://road.cc/content/news/50677-shane-warne-anti-cyclist-twitter-rant-melbourne-cyclist-says-cricketer-drove-him

...and the Herald Sun comments are classic: :shock:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/warne-blasts-cyclists-on-twittershane-warne-clashes-with-cyclist-on-way-home-from-training-session/comments-fn7x8me2-1226246735306

Enjoy!

SimonAH

The problem is that the attitudes displayed in the comments are becoming mainstream as heavily regulated motorists watch more and more cyclists flouting the law without fear of retribution.

We need to become self regulating as a group.

A loud shout of "tosser" at RLJs might be a start.

ToeKnee

The (anti-cyclist) comments in the Herald Sun are relentless and very depressing. :mad:

SimonAH wrote:

... A loud shout of "tosser" at RLJs might be a start.

I have started to question RLJs out on the road (and the one I work with) ... nothing seems to make them think about the impact of their actions ... it's just none of my business apparently ... why are they all so aggresive? :-(

phy2sll2

I agree in principle. However, even if we eradicated RLJing completely, I sense that we'd just get flak for something else: riding in groups, scaring horses, whatever.

Somehow cyclists have become a target for aggression from people who are otherwise quite rational. Don't quite get it.

On the bright side, reckon it's better over here than in Aus.

mudcow007

ToeKnee wrote:

The (anti-cyclist) comments in the Herald Sun are relentless and very depressing. :mad:

SimonAH wrote:

... A loud shout of "tosser" at RLJs might be a start.

I have started to question RLJs out on the road (and the one I work with) ... nothing seems to make them think about the impact of their actions ... it's just none of my business apparently ... why are they all so aggresive? :-(

i had a go at bloke who jumped a set on Queens drive in Liverpool (main ring road) here the "cyclist" turned around an shouted "So What" an rode on

this is a mega scary junction at the best of times!!

Stevo_666

phy2sll2 wrote:

What a prat. :roll:

I can't help thinking of this when I hear Shane Warne mentioned, it's what he used to be famous for: (NSFW) :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYuPwX_zEJ0

bompington

SimonAH wrote:

The problem is that the attitudes displayed in the comments are becoming mainstream as heavily regulated motorists watch more and more cyclists flouting the law without fear of retribution.

We need to become self regulating as a group.

A loud shout of "tosser" at RLJs might be a start.

But the funny thing is that round here, I don't see that many cyclists at all, never mind ones who are flouting the law. But there are plenty of aggressive drivers.

And how many of the cyclists who are "flouting the law" are actually endangering or even just inconveniencing motorists?

I still think that the problems with motorists' attitudes stem from two basic sources - firstly, everything about modern motoring culture encourages impatience and aggression, and cyclists, being small and weak, are an easy target: and secondly, jealousy - not that we can flout the law, but that even law-abiding cyclists have so much more freedom of movement than vehicles on crowded roads.

RLJers etc. are just a straw man to justify attitudes that people know are plain wrong.

phy2sll2

bompington wrote:

RLJers etc. are just a straw man to justify attitudes that people know are plain wrong.

That rings true for me.

bails87

bompington wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

The problem is that the attitudes displayed in the comments are becoming mainstream as heavily regulated motorists watch more and more cyclists flouting the law without fear of retribution.

We need to become self regulating as a group.

A loud shout of "tosser" at RLJs might be a start.

But the funny thing is that round here, I don't see that many cyclists at all, never mind ones who are flouting the law. But there are plenty of aggressive drivers.

Exactly.

I get stick from motorists for overtaking on the outside "bikes have to stay near the kerb". For not going round RABs in the first lane, even when I'm turning right "bikes should stay to the left and let cars go at junctions". For not using a cyclepath (it was just the pavement, no cyclepath!) "you're holding everyone up, you're meant to be on the path".

At the very least, a large minority (being diplomatic) of drivers break the speed limit. If I'm driving and I'm doing 30 in a 30, I get abuse.

Cyclists break rules, drivers break rules. It annoys me when both do it. But I don't get abuse for breaking rules/laws, I get abuse because I'm on a bike.

simon_e

SimonAH wrote:

We need to become self regulating as a group.

I'm not sure I want to invite a punch-up by telling people not to RLJ, whether it's some chavvy git on a BSO or Mr I'm Too Cool To Stop On Red. The odd times I've told someone wearing black and cycling without lights they need a set of them I've had an earful. By all means indulge in whatever 'regulating' you want but I suggest you wear a PCSO uniform while doing it. I'm certainly not saying we shouldn't care but it's not MY fault some people deliberately break the law and not MY job to enforce it.

bompington wrote:

RLJers etc. are just a straw man to justify attitudes that people know are plain wrong.

Spot on.

Bridie O'Donnell has written a very good article about Shane Warne:

http://www.bridie.com.au/component/cont ... e-paid-for

notsoblue

bompington wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

The problem is that the attitudes displayed in the comments are becoming mainstream as heavily regulated motorists watch more and more cyclists flouting the law without fear of retribution.

We need to become self regulating as a group.

A loud shout of "tosser" at RLJs might be a start.

But the funny thing is that round here, I don't see that many cyclists at all, never mind ones who are flouting the law. But there are plenty of aggressive drivers.

And how many of the cyclists who are "flouting the law" are actually endangering or even just inconveniencing motorists?

I still think that the problems with motorists' attitudes stem from two basic sources - firstly, everything about modern motoring culture encourages impatience and aggression, and cyclists, being small and weak, are an easy target: and secondly, jealousy - not that we can flout the law, but that even law-abiding cyclists have so much more freedom of movement than vehicles on crowded roads.

RLJers etc. are just a straw man to justify attitudes that people know are plain wrong.

+1

notsoblue

SimonAH wrote:

We need to become self regulating as a group.

Yeah, good luck with that...

bompington and Bails87 are spot on. I make mistakes, I'm human, but most negativity I've received from motorists has simply been because I've been on a bike. I've lost count the number of times I've been honked at for no good reason other than I'm slowing a driver down.

mybreakfastconsisted

SimonAH wrote:

The problem is that the attitudes displayed in the comments are becoming mainstream as heavily regulated motorists watch more and more cyclists flouting the law without fear of retribution.
.

Eh?

A spokesperson told me that in the past three years City Police issued 12 fixed penalties to motorists for entering ASZs unlawfully.


Yet in the same period it handed out just over 6,000 fixed penalties to cyclists for jumping red lights.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/b ... s-cyclists

SimonAH

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

The problem is that the attitudes displayed in the comments are becoming mainstream as heavily regulated motorists watch more and more cyclists flouting the law without fear of retribution.
.

Eh?

A spokesperson told me that in the past three years City Police issued 12 fixed penalties to motorists for entering ASZs unlawfully.


Yet in the same period it handed out just over 6,000 fixed penalties to cyclists for jumping red lights.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/b ... s-cyclists

Right BaconButtie Yes more ticket issued for RLJ’ing bicycles than for cars into ASLs but FFS isn’t this completely obvious?

Bicycles will be done in a ‘swoop’ because it’s very easy to do where they will trap hundreds in a go. You're less likely do this with the very specific offence of a car interfering into an ASL because it blocks the traffic so badly and you have to get them one at a time - in other words it's more of an arse for the police. You are not even attempting to compare apples with apples – just jumping on your standard ‘all drivers are evil, all cyclists are pure of heart’ single issue soapbox.

How often do you see a car jump a red? Perhaps once a month in my area (maybe more in yours) because when caught you get points on your licence, your insurance goes up and you ALSO get a fine (and possibly a court appearance). Wrap this up with a few speeding offences – massively easy to do – and you can lose your licence to drive. As a result of this you can lose your livelihood – and perhaps your house? Ergo you have to be a serious idiot to do it.

How often do you see a bicycle jump a red? Or fail to stop at a pedestrian crossing? In my area, not so often, but when cycling in the cities I see it all the time, perhaps as much as one in five cyclists do it habitually. What’s the worst they face? In the infinitesimally small likelihood that they get caught it’s a small cash fine. And by the way – there is your proof of the tiny chance of getting caught – as even the thickest twat on a bicycle would soon stop RLJing if he got a £30 fine every couple of days.

Yes, it’s a straw man. Yes, it’s no excuse for violent or abusive behaviour. Yes, law abiding cyclists amongst us, it may feel as if you are being targeted purely because you are on a bike (and sometimes, this is probably true) but IN GENERAL is it any wonder that the motorists perception of a cyclist is a freeloading scofflaw? They are already under massive pressure and to see others apparently getting all the advantages of the transport network without the costs or the risks associated with running a car drives a very significant subsection of them up the frickin’ wall.

I am a cyclist. I am also a motorist.

I broadly adhere to the law on my bicycle (I say broadly as I have no pedal reflectors, and will do more than the speed limit whenever I am capable and it’s not insanely dangerous to do so) and it REALLY TICKS ME OFF that sometimes I am tarred with the same brush as idiotic little sh1ts that RLJ and blast through zebra crossings purely because I am on a bicycle.

When someone is shooting at you it is common sense to stop handing them ammunition.

notsoblue

SimonAH wrote:

How often do you see a car jump a red? Perhaps once a month in my area (maybe more in yours) because when caught you get points on your licence, your insurance goes up and you ALSO get a fine (and possibly a court appearance). Wrap this up with a few speeding offences – massively easy to do – and you can lose your licence to drive. As a result of this you can lose your livelihood – and perhaps your house? Ergo you have to be a serious idiot to do it.

Honestly? I see cars jump reds pretty much every single day.

rick_chasey

Do cyclists proportionally jump more red lights per minute travelled than motorists speed?

veronese68

Rick Chasey wrote:

Do cyclists proportionally jump more red lights per minute travelled than motorists speed?

Whilst you are right in what you say that's not the point. To the majority of the great unwashed speeding is acceptable but a cyclist jumping a red light is not. The reason for this is that the majority drive and don't like cyclists. There is a set of lights I pass that it would often be better for me if I jumped the red, not dangerous as I'm going straight on at a T junction with traffic joining from the right. I don't because I know it annoys people.
Saying that I went through a light that was very dark green this morning, but I was next to the front wing of a Jag that also carried on and I was paying more attention to him than to the light.

bigmat

SimonAH wrote:

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

The problem is that the attitudes displayed in the comments are becoming mainstream as heavily regulated motorists watch more and more cyclists flouting the law without fear of retribution.
.

Eh?

A spokesperson told me that in the past three years City Police issued 12 fixed penalties to motorists for entering ASZs unlawfully.


Yet in the same period it handed out just over 6,000 fixed penalties to cyclists for jumping red lights.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/b ... s-cyclists

Right BaconButtie Yes more ticket issued for RLJ’ing bicycles than for cars into ASLs but FFS isn’t this completely obvious?

Bicycles will be done in a ‘swoop’ because it’s very easy to do where they will trap hundreds in a go. You're less likely do this with the very specific offence of a car interfering into an ASL because it blocks the traffic so badly and you have to get them one at a time - in other words it's more of an ars* for the police. You are not even attempting to compare apples with apples – just jumping on your standard ‘all drivers are evil, all cyclists are pure of heart’ single issue soapbox.

How often do you see a car jump a red? Perhaps once a month in my area (maybe more in yours) because when caught you get points on your licence, your insurance goes up and you ALSO get a fine (and possibly a court appearance). Wrap this up with a few speeding offences – massively easy to do – and you can lose your licence to drive. As a result of this you can lose your livelihood – and perhaps your house? Ergo you have to be a serious idiot to do it.

How often do you see a bicycle jump a red? Or fail to stop at a pedestrian crossing? In my area, not so often, but when cycling in the cities I see it all the time, perhaps as much as one in five cyclists do it habitually. What’s the worst they face? In the infinitesimally small likelihood that they get caught it’s a small cash fine. And by the way – there is your proof of the tiny chance of getting caught – as even the thickest fool on a bicycle would soon stop RLJing if he got a £30 fine every couple of days.

Yes, it’s a straw man. Yes, it’s no excuse for violent or abusive behaviour. Yes, law abiding cyclists amongst us, it may feel as if you are being targeted purely because you are on a bike (and sometimes, this is probably true) but IN GENERAL is it any wonder that the motorists perception of a cyclist is a freeloading scofflaw? They are already under massive pressure and to see others apparently getting all the advantages of the transport network without the costs or the risks associated with running a car drives a very significant subsection of them up the frickin’ wall.

I am a cyclist. I am also a motorist.

I broadly adhere to the law on my bicycle (I say broadly as I have no pedal reflectors, and will do more than the speed limit whenever I am capable and it’s not insanely dangerous to do so) and it REALLY TICKS ME OFF that sometimes I am tarred with the same brush as idiotic little sh1ts that RLJ and blast through zebra crossings purely because I am on a bicycle.

When someone is shooting at you it is common sense to stop handing them ammunition.

There's a better forum for you, I think its called pistonheads or something...

mybreakfastconsisted

simon, it ticks you off that this collective guilt applies to cyclists so us law-abiders get lumped in with chavvy kids who jump reds, and at the same time you claim I hate cars because I point out their transgressions are ignored whilst cyclists are clamped down on! The police seem to me to devote an awful lot of resources at cyclists and ignore asl infringements, exactly the same offence, a TS10.

mybreakfastconsisted

Rick Chasey wrote:

Do cyclists proportionally jump more red lights per minute travelled than motorists speed?

Don't know, found this:

A survey by the RAC found that, yes, a lot of cyclists run red lights. It also found that one in ten drivers in Manchester and London crossed traffic lights more than three seconds after the lights turned red, and one in five bus drivers ran red lights. There are ten thousand traffic light camera prosecutions annually in London alone, a small part of the 1.5 million prosecutions annually based on camera evidence (I don't know what proportion are speed versus red lights), in turn the tip of the iceberg of twelve million prosecutions and cautions for motoring offences by UK police forces in 2002.

http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/wiki/Bloody_cyclists

W1

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

simon, it ticks you off that this collective guilt applies to cyclists so us law-abiders get lumped in with chavvy kids who jump reds, and at the same time you claim I hate cars because I point out their transgressions are ignored whilst cyclists are clamped down on! The police seem to me to devote an awful lot of resources at cyclists and ignore asl infringements, exactly the same offence, a TS10.

That's generally because, as you well know, the law is an ass when it comes to ASLs and enforcement. It needs serious reform.

We've done this topic a bazillion times, so there's no point repeating it all again, but suffice to say (in my view) the police do not disproportionately target cyclists and if they set up "campaigns" they do so because anti-social cycling is one of the biggest complaints the police receive - so it's no surprise they are keen to be seen to be doing something about it. Not to mention that a cyclist running a red light whilst not seeing a policeman probably isn't paying enough attention in the first place to be doing something so dangerous.

Cyclists (as a group) do themselves no favours by flouting the law and are going to quickly bring on tougher legislation if they continue to do so - it is only a matter of time. Cyclists being apologists for other cyclists breaking the law only add to the arguments that all cyclists should be licenced, registered and insured. I don't want that, and therefore I get legitimately annoyed by seeing significantly more unlawful cycling each day than I see unlawful driving. I struggle to understand how cyclists (on forums such as these) so reguarly support behaviour that will have a detrimental effect on us all in due course.

Cyclists have an awful lot of freedom to lose here - and the blame for this loss of freedom falls squarely on those who take the piss with the law, and those who apologise for them.

W1

BigMat wrote:

There's a better forum for you, I think its called pistonheads or something...

it's almost as if you didn't bother reading what he actually said.

SimonAH

Matt, I have a fully expensed company car and live in a semi rural area, but I am proud to say that since the summer I have made almost no private mileage on my car whatsoever.

This includes shopping, commuting and taking my daughter to school etc.

This is not because of economics, but choice.

greg66_tri_v2.0

From the road.cc article:

"Warne claimed that the cyclist had hit his car as he moved past it and positioned his bike in front of it at traffic lights, then turned and delivered abuse at him.

He said he told the cyclist to get off the road, admitting that he clipped his tyre as he drove his Mercedes past him.
...
the cyclist involved in the incident described how, after he had moved his bike into the centre lane at the lights, the driver – who had not yet realised was Warne – was shouting at him, yelling, “What are you doing? You don’t own the road! Get out of the way.”

The cyclist went on, “I shook my head and probably yelled something similarly inane back. Now even more agitated the driver continued to yell, ‘you don’t own the road.’

“I looked more closely and recognised him as Shane Warne, laughed and asked, “What are you doing?” and began to get ready to clip into my bike to continue the ride home.”

“But before I could the driver lurched his car forward forcing my bike wheel and almost my leg under the front of his car.

“Dumbfounded at how overtly aggressive the driver had been and aware that we were now holding up the traffic, I pulled my bike from under the car and attempted to continue riding. My wheel was jammed against the frame of my bike and the chain was tangled so I had to carry it to the footpath to fix it.”
...
Both parties filed complaints with the police, although the latter advised each to explore a civil action instead "due to the minor nature of the incident.""

Those Aussie police sure seem pretty laid back.

CiB

So a famous Aussie in Oz has an altercation with cyclist, misjudges giving him a scare by running into his bike, realises that lots of people will have seen this happen so quickly posts a one-sided account of it on MyTwatterSpaceBook in a spurious attempt at getting his retaliation in first; independent witness poo-poos Warney and now he's starting to look silly. Lovely.

simon_e

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

one in ten drivers in Manchester and London crossed traffic lights more than three seconds after the lights turned red, and one in five bus drivers ran red lights.

Also:
- There were 171,000 fixed penalty noticed for use of mobile hand-held device while in control of a vehicle in the 12 month period 2010-2011. And that's just the tiny fraction that were caught!
- 18% of drivers in the UK admit to using their mobile phone while driving
http://www.swiftcover.com/carinsurance/ ... e-driving/

For the West Midlands and West Mercia, the latest info I found is the response to FoI requests at http://www.whatdotheyknow.com. In the financial year 2009-2010 the number of speeding tickets issued were 45,996 and 72,016 respectively. In 2010-2011 the numbers were 31,592 and 81,697. West Mercia covers Shropshire, Hereford & Worcester.

So they can shut the f**k up about cyclists that jump red lights.

bigmat

SimonAH wrote:

Matt, I have a fully expensed company car and live in a semi rural area, but I am proud to say that since the summer I have made almost no private mileage on my car whatsoever.

This includes shopping, commuting and taking my daughter to school etc.

This is not because of economics, but choice.

Good stuff. My earlier comment wasn't particularly well balanced, but was targetting the fact that you were coming across as an apologist for bad and aggressive driving. I appreciate that minor road traffic infringements by cyclists give people a stick to beat us with, but I don't want to get caught up in that whole debate again. I just found it frustrating that in a thread about somebody deliberatel;y driving into a cyclist, you thought an appropriate response was to infer that its cyclists' own fault for jumping red lights - seems bizarre.

@ W1 - I think you are getting a tad panicked here. The prospect of being licenced / registered / insured doesn't really worry me. Firstly, I have no real objection to any of that, but mainly because it is completely unfeasible and will never happen. Expect more of the same - increasing numbers of cyclists, increasing numbers of idiots berating us. A few jumping red lights or not isn't going to make a huge difference (IMO).

W1

BigMat wrote:

[
@ W1 - I think you are getting a tad panicked here. The prospect of being licenced / registered / insured doesn't really worry me. Firstly, I have no real objection to any of that, but mainly because it is completely unfeasible and will never happen. Expect more of the same - increasing numbers of cyclists, increasing numbers of idiots berating us. A few jumping red lights or not isn't going to make a huge difference (IMO).

Probably. I hope I'm wrong. I used to think like you - but I'm not so sure anymore.

I would object to having to jump through red-tape and (expensive) hoops because a significant minority can't comprehend the abuse of the freedoms that we currently have.

rick_chasey

Veronese68 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Do cyclists proportionally jump more red lights per minute travelled than motorists speed?

Whilst you are right in what you say that's not the point. To the majority of the great unwashed speeding is acceptable but a cyclist jumping a red light is not. The reason for this is that the majority drive and don't like cyclists. There is a set of lights I pass that it would often be better for me if I jumped the red, not dangerous as I'm going straight on at a T junction with traffic joining from the right. I don't because I know it annoys people.
Saying that I went through a light that was very dark green this morning, but I was next to the front wing of a Jag that also carried on and I was paying more attention to him than to the light.

Agreed.

Re the highlighted bit - in some countries they'd let cyclists go through there, since no traffic is being crossed.

My point is, the argument motorists use cut both ways. They're similar in that a) everyone who does it think they're doing it safely, and b) there are good reasons why it isn't allowed.

The solution, is better infrastructure. for cyclists, as ever.

bigmat

W1 wrote:

BigMat wrote:

[
@ W1 - I think you are getting a tad panicked here. The prospect of being licenced / registered / insured doesn't really worry me. Firstly, I have no real objection to any of that, but mainly because it is completely unfeasible and will never happen. Expect more of the same - increasing numbers of cyclists, increasing numbers of idiots berating us. A few jumping red lights or not isn't going to make a huge difference (IMO).

Probably. I hope I'm wrong. I used to think like you - but I'm not so sure anymore.

I would object to having to jump through red-tape and (expensive) hoops because a significant minority can't comprehend the abuse of the freedoms that we currently have.

The administrative burden would be massively disproportionate, then there's the issue of what to do about children, how to enforce and what benefit there might actually be. I guess it could happen, but there'd be a huge backlash as it flies in the face of common sense especially when looked at from a health / environmental perspective. I'd be happy to face compulsory third party insurance to cycle on the roads though - might make obtaining that sort of cover more straightforward.

Gussio

Simon E wrote:

Bridie O'Donnell has written a very good article about Shane Warne:

http://www.bridie.com.au/component/cont ... e-paid-for

Good article and a classic portrait of a "professional athlete".