English Referendum?

ddraver

Sorry Ron, do you think there should be a Referendum for English people or not?

Ron Stuart

ddraver wrote:

Sorry Ron, do you think there should be a Referendum for English people or not?

These days England doesn't consist of just the English people for example according to official figures 25% of all new jobs go to Non- UK Nationals, although I'm not a great fan of statistics there seems to be a perceived idea on this thread that England consists purely of English people.
So bottom line is No to English people only voting, it would be unrepresentative. The Scottish referendum as I understand will included anyone that lives legally in Scotland but it will only form a mandate to approach the UK Government regards Independence as it is only the UK Government that legally can approve it.
If there was a referendum on the question of Scottish Independence for those people living in England, Wales, or Northern Ireland in part or full they should think carefully about the amount of oil revenue that comes to the UK treasury from Scottish Oil fields but some would say that is it not the right of a Nation to determine it's own future, we gave back the British Empire after all. My could be ancestors Tudors and Stuarts married and although Scotland and England were separate sovereign states they were ruled over by one Monarch for a long time as they are now.

deptfordmarmoset

My own opinion on Cameron is that, instead of '''standing up for Britain,'' he should ''stand down for Britain.'' But, even though I've got him down as a wibbler, I'm still amazed how ineptly he's set this up. Did he really underestimate Salmond that badly? Salmond is on home ground on this one and he's exceptionally good in a political fight, which Cameron is bound to lose. Unless Ca-me!-me!-me!-ron is secretly trying to scupper the union....

As an England-based Brit, I think Scottish independence would be a really backward step and a great loss, but it really isn't up to me to vote. That responsibility is purely for the Scottish. But I can't imagine that a majority of Scots will throw in the towel with the Union and line up with Merkel and her yapping French poodle.

ddraver

The first point is a non-issue Ron, people that live in England and who are eligible to Vote - that is all. Do you think the SNP will be outside every voting both in 2014 asking for proof of voter's scottshness back to William Wallace?

As a petroleum geologist, I have my doubts as to how long the Scottish oil will last, finite resources and all that....

rolf_f

Being British I find this all very confusing

ddraver wrote:

As a petroleum geologist, I have my doubts as to how long the Scottish oil will last, finite resources and all that....

And it is naive for anyone to think that the Scottish will become wealthy as individuals because of it. Indeed, my experience from Norway is that there is little conspicuous wealth there either though they do have good healthcare etc (rather like already exists in Scotland at least compared to England).

What I don't like about the whole 'lets keep the oil for ourselves' mindset is that there are plenty of parts of England and Wales that have far more in common with Scotland than Westminster but which would probably bear the brunt of things like the loss of oil revenue.

Truth is, an independant Scotland would probably be exactly the same for most people - just less efficient. Gains and losses of course but ultimately probably not worth the bother in practical terms.

Redhog14

As a Scot living in Scotland and working in the Capital, I don't actually know anyone who wants independence, other than the brain dead Tartan Army, chip on the shoulder, England steals all oor oil money brigade - which is an unproven case. Anyone I know with a degree of intelligence is opposed or believes it will only go tits up. Salmond is a very dangerous man and the more so because no credible alternative leader exists in Holyrood or Westminster for the that matter, to oppose him, in a debate Salmond would take both Cameron or Milliband but that does not mean he is right. I for one do not wish to undo 300 years of a prosperous nation, no matter how we may think things are bad at the moment the UK is better than a whole long list of others. I can only hope that Cameron does not want to go down as the "last PM of the UK" and sticks it to Salmond.

Jez mon

Redhog14 wrote:

As a Scot living in Scotland and working in the Capital, I don't actually know anyone who wants independence, other than the brain dead Tartan Army, chip on the shoulder, England steals all oor oil money brigade - which is an unproven case. Anyone I know with a degree of intelligence is opposed or believes it will only go tits up. Salmond is a very dangerous man and the more so because no credible alternative leader exists in Holyrood or Westminster for the that matter, to oppose him, in a debate Salmond would take both Cameron or Milliband but that does not mean he is right. I for one do not wish to undo 300 years of a prosperous nation, no matter how we may think things are bad at the moment the UK is better than a whole long list of others. I can only hope that Cameron does not want to go down as the "last PM of the UK" and sticks it to Salmond.

I think it's safe to assume he doesn't wish to be the last PM of the UK, but the question is, how does he go about doing this without playing into the hands of Salmond. I think he might find it difficult to strike the balance between playing up to Scottish strengths, and reminding Scots of how they are better off within the union. In fact, I'm fairly sure he isn't the man to do it. Possibly it would be far better if there was a high profile Scottish politician who took the cause up, but I can't really think of anyone suitable.

on the road

As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for you might get it!

Redhog14

on the road wrote:

As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for you might get it!

but who is wishing for it exactly? As I say i don't know anyone with a brain who thinks it is a good idea. The devolved parliment might have been a good idea in terms of how monies are allocated from the Public Purse to spend on roads and education for example but there are too many ingrained constitutional issues to be raised e.g. the BBC, Armed Forces, Clyde and Rosyth naval bases and shipyards in particular, Airports, railways etc.

Pross

It's interesting that Salmond seems to want the referendum minimum voting age to be 16. Is this as he thinks younger people are more likely to be nationalistic and not consider the negative aspects of independence? I know that at 16 I would have voted for Welsh independence!

on the road

Redhog14 wrote:

on the road wrote:

As the saying goes, be careful what you wish for you might get it!

but who is wishing for it exactly? As I say i don't know anyone with a brain who thinks it is a good idea. The devolved parliment might have been a good idea in terms of how monies are allocated from the Public Purse to spend on roads and education for example but there are too many ingrained constitutional issues to be raised e.g. the BBC, Armed Forces, Clyde and Rosyth naval bases and shipyards in particular, Airports, railways etc.

Exactly.

Only 32% of the Scottish population want Scottish independant, but if Salmond gets his way and Scotland becomes an indepentant nation then there'll be all those problems and more.

bearfraser

As a Scotsman I really enjoy a good P$%^ take of our southern cousins but we as a nation all enjoy a bit of banter . However i dont think those who favour an Independant Scotland have fully done the financial sums,even with the Oil revenue I dont think we can afford as a nation to seperate and probably have to take up the EURO and all its Fcuk wits . Also we seem to have more than our fair share of NEETS and Benefits users (I apreciate that its not always their fault) but is a financial burden i dont think as a Independant Nation we could afford . And never mind the issue of a military presence , the oil which will eventually run out ,to many wind turbines that wont stop the lights going out , no intention to go with the nuclear option. No i think we will have to love to hate you for a few millenium more

GiantMike

I think this was my original point about an English withdrawal from the UK. I don't see why England should be something that others opt in/out of, thus making the UK. I'd prefer to see a referendum that says:

DO YOU WANT ENGLAND TO WITHDRAW FROM THE UK AS A STANDALONE NATION?

YES or NO?

Otherwise it feels like a bit of an ugly girl at a party waiting to see if anybody wants to be with her. I'm thinking that it would be good to make a decision for ourselves.

Pross

GiantMike wrote:

I think this was my original point about an English withdrawal from the UK. I don't see why England should be something that others opt in/out of, thus making the UK. I'd prefer to see a referendum that says:

DO YOU WANT ENGLAND TO WITHDRAW FROM THE UK AS A STANDALONE NATION?

YES or NO?

Otherwise it feels like a bit of an ugly girl at a party waiting to see if anybody wants to be with her. I'm thinking that it would be good to make a decision for ourselves.

I'd have been happy with that 200 odd years ago before English businessmen came in and asset stripped Wales of all its natural resources which they used to build an empire (and huge personal wealth)

To expand your analogy you have had the ugly girl you met at the party, used her for your pleasure but do not want to support her now she has nothing left to offer lol.

daviesee

Pross wrote:

To expand your analogy you have had the ugly girl you met at the party, used her for your pleasure but do not want to support her now she has nothing left to offer lol.

Good one!

I've always said that England will give Scotland independance the day after the oil runs out.

GiantMike

daviesee wrote:

Pross wrote:

To expand your analogy you have had the ugly girl you met at the party, used her for your pleasure but do not want to support her now she has nothing left to offer lol.

Good one!

I've always said that England will give Scotland independance the day after the oil runs out.

I was under the impression that Scotland could have independence whenever it likes, as long as there's a referendum. Is it really England's to give?

thegreatdivide

daviesee wrote:

Pross wrote:

To expand your analogy you have had the ugly girl you met at the party, used her for your pleasure but do not want to support her now she has nothing left to offer lol.

Good one!

I've always said that England will give Scotland independance the day after the oil runs out.

Brilliant posts!

Ron Stuart

This link for those that are interested in what can or may happen http://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2012/01/ ... d-kingdom/

daviesee

GiantMike wrote:

I was under the impression that Scotland could have independence whenever it likes, as long as there's a referendum. Is it really England's to give?

My quip was not to be taken literally but as the UK Government (mostly English MPs) has to allow* Scotland to seperate then Scotland can't leave on a whim.
*by law, see the thread in Commuting if you have enough time

nwallace

GiantMike wrote:

I was in a pub in St Andrews during the 2002 World Cup. All the Scots in the pub were supporting Argentina rather than England.

I guess if you can't qualify you need to support somebody, but the Argentinians?

Took me a while to realise all the students would be away at that time of year.

rolf_f

The English don't need a referendum. There's plenty enough concrete manufacturing capability in England to use the M25 as foundations for a very durable wall.........