Disc Brakes for Road?

Pseudonym

it will happen sooner or later - but if you aren't currently winning road races on caliper brakes, you won't be winning them on disc brakes either.....

rolf_f

MattC59 wrote:

Ease of maintenance.

That certainly isn't an advantage of discs - stop being silly

I'll give you the others even though most probably aren't as important as people might think they are but discs are far more of an issue in terms of maintenance. I mean, if you can't maintain a spring, a piece of wire and a cable outer, then you really aren't ready for day release yet!

MattC59 wrote:

Consistant braking despite rim material.

So how does that work? I mean, on most of my rides my rim material remains constant for the whole trip

Incidentally, I probably am a bit of a luddite - well 50% of one. Development, IMO, tends to plateau and go downhill from there on. Cars are now getting worse than they once were and bicycles are heading that way. I have old and new bikes and opinions on both. Eg, mostly, downtube shifters are better than integrated - the main time when they aren't is if you need to downshift on an out of the saddle climb. That involves a sit, shift, stand that you don't need on integrated shifters - annoying but not exactly an issue most of the time for most people. Frame material - well, the weight speaks for itself; I like classic steel with a traditional crankset but I'm far quicker on my carbon bikes with compacts. 10, 11, 12 speed? Well, extra gears are nice but you don't really need them. Clipless pedals - genius. Electronic shifting - useful if you don't want to learn how to index yourself but the built in obsolescence already afflicting it puts me off.

So, some of it's good, some of its bad and some is a bit m'eh.

One day, it will be like cars - you won't be able to service or repair your bike at home because all the tools for everything will be specific and expensive. But most will believe that this is progress and a good thing and those tat disagree will be accused of being luddites. These people are the ones that don't know when to stop and enjoy what they have .......

MattC59

Rolf F wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

Ease of maintenance.

That certainly isn't an advantage of discs - stop being silly

I'll give you the others even though most probably aren't as important as people might think they are but discs are far more of an issue in terms of maintenance. I mean, if you can't maintain a spring, a piece of wire and a cable outer, then you really aren't ready for day release yet!

I said ease, not easier.
Let's be honest, hydraulc brakes aren't exactly difficult to maintain, a nutless monkey could set them up, and when set up properly, they barely need touching.

MattC59 wrote:

Consistant braking despite rim material.

So how does that work? I mean, on most of my rides my rim material remains constant for the whole trip

But your braking doesn't necessarily remain constant, especially with carbon rims.

meanredspider

Mechanical discs are very easy to maintain (what little maintenance they need) - no more than rim brakes in my experience of the BB5 and BB7 I have on my CX commuter.

And, whilst discs are going to have me winning races, nor will Ultegra over 105 or carbon stems or better pedals or any number of other upgrades. But if I could sensibly fit discs to my road bike today, I would.

MattC59

meanredspider wrote:

Mechanical discs are very easy to maintain (what little maintenance they need) - no more than rim brakes in my experience of the BB5 and BB7 I have on my CX commuter.

And, whilst discs are going to have me winning races, nor will Ultegra over 105 or carbon stems or better pedals or any number of other upgrades. But if I could sensibly fit discs to my road bike today, I would.

This is the incredibly vain sport of road biking we're talking about, I don't think being sensible comes into it

angry_bird

I'm always amazed at the difference in braking performance between the mountain bikes and my road bike... in fact after a while just on the mountain bike going back to the road bike was just scary how much less power and feel I had.

I welcome them, I won't be able to/afford to get them for a while though being a student and all...

MattC59

Rolf F wrote:

One day, it will be like cars - you won't be able to service or repair your bike at home because all the tools for everything will be specific and expensive. But most will believe that this is progress and a good thing and those tat disagree will be accused of being luddites. These people are the ones that don't know when to stop and enjoy what they have .......

Totally agree. I understand improving things, but changing them for the sake of it; I'm not so sure.
One off the things I love about cycling is the fact that you can get your hands dirty and maintain your bike completely, if you're so inclined.

I like mechanical things, you can tinker with them and maintain them.
Electronic shifting.... apparently the new Ultegra Di is fantastic, but what's wrong with well set up indexed shifting and a cable ?

Jez mon

Rolf F wrote:

Incidentally, I probably am a bit of a luddite - well 50% of one. Development, IMO, tends to plateau and go downhill from there on. Cars are now getting worse than they once were and bicycles are heading that way. I have old and new bikes and opinions on both. Eg, mostly, downtube shifters are better than integrated - the main time when they aren't is if you need to downshift on an out of the saddle climb. That involves a sit, shift, stand that you don't need on integrated shifters - annoying but not exactly an issue most of the time for most people. Frame material - well, the weight speaks for itself; I like classic steel with a traditional crankset but I'm far quicker on my carbon bikes with compacts. 10, 11, 12 speed? Well, extra gears are nice but you don't really need them. Clipless pedals - genius. Electronic shifting - useful if you don't want to learn how to index yourself but the built in obsolescence already afflicting it puts me off.

So, some of it's good, some of its bad and some is a bit m'eh.

One day, it will be like cars - you won't be able to service or repair your bike at home because all the tools for everything will be specific and expensive. But most will believe that this is progress and a good thing and those tat disagree will be accused of being luddites. These people are the ones that don't know when to stop and enjoy what they have .......

Can't really see real advantages to downtube shifters, other than perhaps weight, and simplicity. The advantages are rather easy to see, I can think of a fair few situations where you don't particularly want to take your hands off the handlebars, especially for less confident riders.

I also don't particularly see bikes going the way of cars. Let's be honest, other than electronic gearing, which shouldn't really need much adjustment at all, they can't make bikes that complicated. A car otoh, is fairly complex, there's just far more going on. As for cars being more user serviceable, well they used to break down a lot more, tbh, I'd take a more reliable car over one that was user serviceable any day...

As for disc brakes for road, I think the biggest problem they would face is the UCI, and possible issues with them being rather nasty in any crashes.

markos1963

Whilst there are compatability issues now in pro racing with back up wheels how will they be able to offer spare wheels to pro riders in a race if some have discs(of various brands and sizes) and some are on rim brakes? Can't see it happening in the peloton anytime soon. Another point is, when is a disc( on the front wheel) a brake or an aerodynamic aid? I can see it now, Cancellara turns up a the Worlds with an twenty five inch diameter carbon disc brake!!!

rolf_f

MattC59 wrote:

I like mechanical things, you can tinker with them and maintain them.
Electronic shifting.... apparently the new Ultegra Di is fantastic, but what's wrong with well set up indexed shifting and a cable ?

The big problem I have is the obsolescence thing - eg already, as I understand it, the Ultegra setup is completely incompatible with the Dura Ace. This is probably how it will ever be. Then there is the gizmo box itself. Already, there is no reason why the box couldn't record gear shifts and send it to your GPS computer so you could analyse your shifting - and then the box could contain the whole computer with just a thin display on your bars. But all tis will be deliberately trickled out slowly, Apple like, so you have to upgrade every five minutes (and you will believe that you need to upgrade!). Each new idea will be treated with rapturous applause and yet none of them will actually really make any real difference.

Like I say, I can admit to being part luddite (and apologise for it!) but if I stand back, and look at my old Dawes from 1990 (which had nothing on a 1960s bike techno wise aside from Reynolds tubing, weak indexing and a triple chainring) and compare a ride on it to a ride on my carbon Look and know that if I am not directly comparing the bikes themselves (because, obviously, the Dawes is much heavier and I notice that after riding the Look) the only thing that has really changed my riding experience over those 20 years is my GPS computer - no longer do I have to stop at every single junction on an unfamiliar road and get the map out because I can't remember routes in my head! That makes a real difference in my ride enjoyment; the other technology is just detail.

Jez mon wrote:

Can't really see real advantages to downtube shifters, other than perhaps weight, and simplicity. The advantages are rather easy to see, I can think of a fair few situations where you don't particularly want to take your hands off the handlebars, especially for less confident riders.

I also don't particularly see bikes going the way of cars. Let's be honest, other than electronic gearing, which shouldn't really need much adjustment at all, they can't make bikes that complicated. A car otoh, is fairly complex, there's just far more going on. As for cars being more user serviceable, well they used to break down a lot more, tbh, I'd take a more reliable car over one that was user serviceable any day...

As for disc brakes for road, I think the biggest problem they would face is the UCI, and possible issues with them being rather nasty in any crashes.

Down tube shifters is a subtle one - have you ever used them? I don't disagree with your points but weight and simplicity are a powerful argument - and a really good quality downtube shifter is a far nicer thing to use than integrated shifters. The mechanical feel of moving the cable across in one fluid movement is far nicer even than the satisfying clickety clunk of Campagnolo 10 speed. And don't forget the cost element. Compared to a downtube shifter and a separate brake lever, integrated shifters are eye-wateringly expensive. There are basically 3 chunky pivots involved in a downtube/separate brake lever setup. I daren't think how many tiny little bits there are in my Centaur shifters.

As for the car thing - they used to break down a lot more in the 70s and they rusted to bits. But by the 90s they were probably more reliable than they are today and the rust issues were largely solved. Now cars get riddled with electrical problems (I used to hear endless stories of mechanical and electrical problems with my lease car owning colleagues) and people seem to think that shelling out a grand for a small piece of replacement electrical gadgetry is not unreasonable. And for the most part, the problems are not down to the workings of the internal combustion engine but all the pointless crap bolted on.

And they will make bikes that complicated!!

meanredspider

Bikes will never get close to the complexity of current cars in our lifetime. The attraction of bikes is their relative simplicity. A bike mechanic from the 60's would quickly feel at home with just about everything on a current pro bike. An F1 mechanic from the 60's would be totally lost on even a family car let alone an F1 car from today. Electronic shifting mostly won't be user serviceable because there's no point - in the same way as your mobile phone isn't. But it will become cheaper, smaller and lighter. At some point the wires will go and it may very well become automatic to some degree or another. I can't see transmissions changing much in the same way that car transmissions are effectively unaltered in the last 60 years. Same goes for brakes. I think it's the last "big" step for bikes to go to hydraulic discs. Again, cars have been there for a very long time - it's cheap, reliable and robust.

Smokin Joe

markos1963 wrote:

Whilst there are compatability issues now in pro racing with back up wheels how will they be able to offer spare wheels to pro riders in a race if some have discs(of various brands and sizes) and some are on rim brakes?

Well, they manage at the moment when some are on Shimano and others on Campag, and among the latter there is a split between 10 and 11.

rolf_f

meanredspider wrote:

Bikes will never get close to the complexity of current cars in our lifetime. The attraction of bikes is their relative simplicity. A bike mechanic from the 60's would quickly feel at home with just about everything on a current pro bike. An F1 mechanic from the 60's would be totally lost on even a family car let alone an F1 car from today.

That's exactly my point - bikes are following from where cars lead. Until recently, the mechanic of the 60s would have been quite happy with the car of today. And in-fact still would be were it not for the fact that the manufacturers are deliberately squeezing the local mechanic out with bespoke high tech hugely expensive diagnostic equipment. Of course it won't end up quite as bad as things have got with cars but examples such as the Campagnolo £130 chain link removal tool are early examples of what the manufacturers will do to ensure that as many people as possible in the future come to accept comically expensive service bills as a normal part of their costs.

Eg how long before BB bearing surfaces are built into frames during manufacturing requiring a factory visit for replacement? And we will accept it because we will be told it is stiffer and lighter even though even Mark Cavendish would barely notice the difference.

See, post Christmas blues misery posts Actually, it is more that I've had a rare cold for the last 3 days and the blue sky has gone and it is a bit rainy so I can't really go out and sample the lovely Suntour groupset (not that they were called such in those days) of my Raleigh Record Ace

meanredspider

Rolf F wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Bikes will never get close to the complexity of current cars in our lifetime. The attraction of bikes is their relative simplicity. A bike mechanic from the 60's would quickly feel at home with just about everything on a current pro bike. An F1 mechanic from the 60's would be totally lost on even a family car let alone an F1 car from today.

That's exactly my point - bikes are following from where cars lead. Until recently, the mechanic of the 60s would have been quite happy with the car of today. And in-fact still would be were it not for the fact that the manufacturers are deliberately squeezing the local mechanic out with bespoke high tech hugely expensive diagnostic equipment. Of course it won't end up quite as bad as things have got with cars but examples such as the Campagnolo £130 chain link removal tool are early examples of what the manufacturers will do to ensure that as many people as possible in the future come to accept comically expensive service bills as a normal part of their costs.

Eg how long before BB bearing surfaces are built into frames during manufacturing requiring a factory visit for replacement? And we will accept it because we will be told it is stiffer and lighter even though even Mark Cavendish would barely notice the difference.

See, post Christmas blues misery posts Actually, it is more that I've had a rare cold for the last 3 days and the blue sky has gone and it is a bit rainy so I can't really go out and sample the lovely Suntour groupset (not that they were called such in those days) of my Raleigh Record Ace

I don't think it's particularly accurate. Sure, the car manufacturers are looking to protect their investments in the development costs but the costs related to low-emission combustion technology are pretty high too. Hybrid technology will make this worse. Bikes, on the other hand, will continue to be just a matter of choice. You don't want the silly Campag chain then don't get it. There's no legislation forcing you down this route. Sure there will will be people who like to brag that their bike is ridiculously complex and expensive but that's just a niche market. Most of us will still expect to be able to do most of the jobs ourselves (again, at least in our lifetimes). I'm sure belts and chains will become obsolete eventually and we'll have some sort of electronic transmission and braking but that's sci fi right now.

I managed to fight off my cold with First Defence

Smokin Joe

A bicycle is not complicated.

With little more than a set of Allen keys anyone with the mechanical nous to change a set of spark plugs and the oil and filter on a car can strip one to it's last componant part and rebuild it.

And in real terms the cost of bikes and equipment is cheaper than it's ever been.

random man

The biggest advantage of discs is when riding in the wet IMO. I have discs on my tourer and and it makes descending in the rain a hell of a lot safer.