Great sports article.

rick_chasey

It's a long one, and it's about an ice hockey player who's only job was to punch people in the face, but this is the best newspaper article I've read this year.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/04/sport ... brawl.html

Comes in 3 parts, and it's pretty long.

Aside from the excellent journalism, the way the website has embedded the videos and pictures is also of the highest quality.

Worth a go if you have the time.


(did the same in cake stop...)

notsoblue

L2LinkProperly, omg

rick_chasey

Jeez, chill out, it's Monday :P

el_presidente

Thanks, great article if somewhat grim reading. North America has a strange attitude to sports sometimes. There are loads of studies showing that playing NFL (especially the really heavy guys) basically ruins your life once you retire. All about the benjamins at the end of the day and the poor schmucks taking the kickings are the last to work it out

daviesee

As per on Cake Stop.
Wayne Gretzky could have been a nobody without Marty McSorley to protect him.

I am fairly sure that similar has happened in this Country with football and rugby, even if it has been more subtle and decreasing as time goes on.

el_presidente

daviesee wrote:

I am fairly sure that similar has happened in this Country with football and rugby, even if it has been more subtle and decreasing as time goes on.

hmmm. plenty of old rugby and football players have knees that are shot to pieces, but legalised bare-knuckle fighting resulting in degenerative brain conditions is a whole different kettle of fish.

rick_chasey

There was a similar brain autopsy on a big hitter in the NFL, with similar result. He killed himself, but I forget his name, since I don't watch NFL.

You wonder what those crashes that left Boonen and Horner dizzy and concussed will have done... They may be less frequent but they're more severe hits.

daviesee

el_presidente wrote:

daviesee wrote:

I am fairly sure that similar has happened in this Country with football and rugby, even if it has been more subtle and decreasing as time goes on.

hmmm. plenty of old rugby and football players have knees that are shot to pieces, but legalised bare-knuckle fighting resulting in degenerative brain conditions is a whole different kettle of fish.

Same could be said for heading the ball.
Ever tried heading a wet leather lace-up, or a mouldmaster?

el_presidente

Rick Chasey wrote:

There was a similar brain autopsy on a big hitter in the NFL, with similar result. He killed himself, but I forget his name, since I don't watch NFL.

You wonder what those crashes that left Boonen and Horner dizzy and concussed will have done... They may be less frequent but they're more severe hits.

The big difference is that the cyclist doesn't set out to crash whereas the NHL enforcer knows exactly what's coming. At least boxing, MMA etc have some kind of regulations and care regime for the fighters whereas the examples in the article imply that the NHL (and prob. the NFL) just bruch it all under the carpet.

el_presidente

daviesee wrote:

el_presidente wrote:

daviesee wrote:

I am fairly sure that similar has happened in this Country with football and rugby, even if it has been more subtle and decreasing as time goes on.

hmmm. plenty of old rugby and football players have knees that are shot to pieces, but legalised bare-knuckle fighting resulting in degenerative brain conditions is a whole different kettle of fish.

Same could be said for heading the ball.
Ever tried heading a wet leather lace-up, or a mouldmaster?

I believe studies have shown this to be a concern - less nowadays with lighter balls.

rick_chasey

el_presidente wrote:

daviesee wrote:

el_presidente wrote:

daviesee wrote:

I am fairly sure that similar has happened in this Country with football and rugby, even if it has been more subtle and decreasing as time goes on.

hmmm. plenty of old rugby and football players have knees that are shot to pieces, but legalised bare-knuckle fighting resulting in degenerative brain conditions is a whole different kettle of fish.

Same could be said for heading the ball.
Ever tried heading a wet leather lace-up, or a mouldmaster?

I believe studies have shown this to be a concern - less nowadays with lighter balls.

My grandfather played football in the 30s at quite a high level and he always refused to head the ball...

rick_chasey

I just like the standard, and the effort they've put into writing and presenting the article.

With newspapers making less and less money, and it being more and more about generating debate and opinion, it's nice to see that journos can pull out some proper work when they want to.

I know little of NHL beyond the NHL97 demo I played as a kid, and I totally got and bought into it.

el_presidente

Rick Chasey wrote:

I just like the standard, and the effort they've put into writing and presenting the article.

With newspapers making less and less money, and it being more and more about generating debate and opinion, it's nice to see that journos can pull out some proper work when they want to.

I know little of NHL beyond the NHL97 demo I played as a kid, and I totally got and bought into it.

NY TImes is a quality publication

clarkey cat

Rick - I've just taken a closer look at your avatar...

I always thought it was a motorboat engine.

rick_chasey

clarkey cat wrote:

Rick - I've just taken a closer look at your avatar...

I always thought it was a motorboat engine.

Everyone says they don't know what my avatar is.

For the record, it's a suited guy, sitting down, tied to the chair, with a lot of bubblewrap wrapped round his head.

daviesee

Rick Chasey wrote:

I just like the standard, and the effort they've put into writing and presenting the article.

With newspapers making less and less money, and it being more and more about generating debate and opinion, it's nice to see that journos can pull out some proper work when they want to.

I know little of NHL beyond the NHL97 demo I played as a kid, and I totally got and bought into it.

Back on topic - excellent article. Trouble for this Country is that there are too many words and not enough celebs :evil:

Re ice hockey. Superb sport if you watch it long enough to get the tactics, nuances and get up to speed with the puck.
Oh, and the fights are mainly as good as staged (you can see them coming, and know who'll be in them) and only last a few seconds. Longer if the pushing and pulling drags on. Much like most (fair) pub fights.

el_presidente

Rick Chasey wrote:

clarkey cat wrote:

Rick - I've just taken a closer look at your avatar...

I always thought it was a motorboat engine.

Everyone says they don't know what my avatar is.

For the record, it's a suited guy, sitting down, tied to the chair, with a lot of bubblewrap wrapped round his head.

Your crazy workmates get wackier everyday!!!

rick_chasey

daviesee wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I just like the standard, and the effort they've put into writing and presenting the article.

With newspapers making less and less money, and it being more and more about generating debate and opinion, it's nice to see that journos can pull out some proper work when they want to.

I know little of NHL beyond the NHL97 demo I played as a kid, and I totally got and bought into it.

Back on topic - excellent article. Trouble for this Country is that there are too many words and not enough celebs :evil:

Re ice hockey. Superb sport if you watch it long enough to get the tactics, nuances and get up to speed with the puck.
Oh, and the fights are mainly as good as staged (you can see them coming, and know who'll be in them) and only last a few seconds. Longer if the pushing and pulling drags on. Much like most (fair) pub fights.

Do you like the fights?

Paulie W

daviesee wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I just like the standard, and the effort they've put into writing and presenting the article.

With newspapers making less and less money, and it being more and more about generating debate and opinion, it's nice to see that journos can pull out some proper work when they want to.

I know little of NHL beyond the NHL97 demo I played as a kid, and I totally got and bought into it.

Back on topic - excellent article. Trouble for this Country is that there are too many words and not enough celebs :evil:

Re ice hockey. Superb sport if you watch it long enough to get the tactics, nuances and get up to speed with the puck.
Oh, and the fights are mainly as good as staged (you can see them coming, and know who'll be in them) and only last a few seconds. Longer if the pushing and pulling drags on. Much like most (fair) pub fights.

Try as I might - I will watch any sport - I cannot get into hockey. I appreciate the skills involved and the physical demands of the sport but the fighting makes a mockery of the whole damn thing. It is the fact they are 'staged' that is the problem - although I dont think this means they are fake, there are plenty of real injuries short and long term as the artcile highlights. Enforcers now get 'trained' to fight. What the f@ck have these staged fights got to do with the game - you dont see staged fights in Olympic hockey although you will see physical confrontations.

mrc1

It's interesting. Nobody is forcing these guys to fight however their careers often depend on it - no fighting no contract as they typically aren't fantastic players. Some of the injuries are awful - broken cheekbones, eye sockets etc but they keep coming back as their reputation/contract is on the line...

Don't think it can really be compared with hits in american football, rugby etc as they are part and parcel of the actual game and largely unavoidable. With the hockey fights it is a choice - ie generally its the enforcers that fight not the regular players.

The bare knuckle thing is odd. I remember seeing some study that showed that the forces involved in boxing and ufc style stuff are much greater as the gloves protect the puncher's delicate hand bones meaning they can hit harder without fear of breaking anything. However bare knuckle certainly does lead to some pretty horrific cuts/gashes.

Reminds of the wrestler Chris Benoit. He killed his family then himself. His mental state was attributed to repeated concussions and minor brain damage.

Paulie W

mrc1 wrote:

Reminds of the wrestler Chris Benoit. He killed his family then himself. His mental state was attributed to repeated concussions and minor brain damage.

And shed loads of steroids!!

mrc1

Paulie W wrote:

mrc1 wrote:

Reminds of the wrestler Chris Benoit. He killed his family then himself. His mental state was attributed to repeated concussions and minor brain damage.

And shed loads of steroids!!

Yeah Im sure that contributed - I'm not defending the bloke. Just that the concussions and brain damage were cited as a reason for his mental health problems.

Steroids is another big issue in all these types of sports. Cycling (rightly) gets a lot of bad press for its doping scandals but i wonder how often other sportsmen are tested in comparison.

el_presidente

mrc1 wrote:

Paulie W wrote:

mrc1 wrote:

Reminds of the wrestler Chris Benoit. He killed his family then himself. His mental state was attributed to repeated concussions and minor brain damage.

And shed loads of steroids!!

Yeah Im sure that contributed - I'm not defending the bloke. Just that the concussions and brain damage were cited as a reason for his mental health problems.

Steroids is another big issue in all these types of sports. Cycling (rightly) gets a lot of bad press for its doping scandals but i wonder how often other sportsmen are tested in comparison.

Major League Baseball didn't even start testing til around 2003. Last season's NL MVP Ryan Braun got busted recently which has caused some consternation.

Paulie W

mrc1 wrote:

The bare knuckle thing is odd. I remember seeing some study that showed that the forces involved in boxing and ufc style stuff are much greater as the gloves protect the puncher's delicate hand bones meaning they can hit harder without fear of breaking anything. However bare knuckle certainly does lead to some pretty horrific cuts/gashes.

It's more about the distribution of the forces I think. You're right that evidence suggests that people are likely to punch with more abandon with gloves and therefore hit harder (although the force is also a function of the size of the gloves and the way the hands are wrapped) but the evidence suggests that the impact from an ungloved hand is less likely to cause the kind of reverberating impact that a gloved hand does. Getting hit with a 16 oz glove can really make your head ring in the way that getting hit with an old fashioned bunch of fives doesnt!

mrc1

Paulie W wrote:

mrc1 wrote:

The bare knuckle thing is odd. I remember seeing some study that showed that the forces involved in boxing and ufc style stuff are much greater as the gloves protect the puncher's delicate hand bones meaning they can hit harder without fear of breaking anything. However bare knuckle certainly does lead to some pretty horrific cuts/gashes.

It's more about the distribution of the forces I think. You're right that evidence suggests that people are likely to punch with more abandon with gloves and therefore hit harder (although the force is also a function of the size of the gloves and the way the hands are wrapped) but the evidence suggests that the impact from an ungloved hand is less likely to cause the kind of reverberating impact that a gloved hand does. Getting hit with a 16 oz glove can really make your head ring in the way that getting hit with an old fashioned bunch of fives doesnt!

I boxed as a lad (amateur obviously so big gloves and head guard). What oftens get overlooked is the visual/non visual injuries. Ie a few rounds in a ring with big gloves and headguard and you take quite a few blows but take your gear off and you look none the worse but may well have concussion. However if you took even one bareknuckle punch to the face you would have some obvious trauma and people see an injury.

rick_chasey

True, but that punch where Boogard collapses half of a guys face is pretty bad...

daviesee

Rick Chasey wrote:

Do you like the fights?

To my shame, I am mixed on that one but not in the way you might think.
Watching on TV, fights bring nothing to the game. In fact they ruin the flow. However, if you have ever been in an NHL stadium when a fight starts you would know that the atmosphere is electric. It is the charged atmosphere that brings something, not the fight per se.
Re the staging, I am convinced that while the fights are real, with real blows, they are contrived to happen.

rick_chasey

daviesee wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Do you like the fights?

To my shame, I am mixed on that one but not in the way you might think.
Watching on TV, fights bring nothing to the game. In fact they ruin the flow. However, if you have ever been in an NHL stadium when a fight starts you would know that the atmosphere is electric. It is the charged atmosphere that brings something, not the fight per se.
Re the staging, I am convinced that while the fights are real, with real blows, they are contrived to happen.

Are they always contrived? And is it always enforcer v enforcer?

It would make more sense if occasionally the enforcer would ruin some player who's being dirty.

I have to say, watching them on youtube, they look pretty tragic. They're ungainly, ugly, and who wins seems pretty arbitrary and pointless. I buy that it can get the crowd going. Not sure how much it buoys the team, especially if it is as contrived as you say.

Massive hits on the other hand, I've been found watching highlight reels of those from time to time.

I watched a friendly in Prague, pre-season warmer, and there was a proper bench clearer, but only after a while, and they were all in a big heap in the corner, rather than doing 1v1s. Remember a guy steaming in, and almost KO'd the assistant ref who was trying to break it up.

Plenty of blood on the floor afterwards. Was quite fun watching it, but more because it was everyone involved v everyone, rather than this 1v1, circling around the centre, limbering up. Can't say I would have been disappointed had I not seen it.

Also saw the Steelers in Sheffield. Certainly no fighting there. Mate told me off for getting sweary. Didn't realise till he pointed it out that everyone there bar us were families with kids.

daviesee

Generally speaking, it happens like this....
A player does something dirty.
The referee takes little or no action.
The opposite team sends on it's enforcer.
The other team sends on it's enforcer.
Time lapse to the fight can be anywhere from 3 seconds to 3 minutes.

The real melees(?) start when the "real" players retaliate. Then it all kicks off!

Edit:- It might not help the team much directly but it certainly gets the fans going. And if the fans can be an extra man like they say, then.......