15 % pay cut for Public sector

Turnbull2000

johnfinch wrote:

Redjeep! wrote:

Are Public Sector salaries really lower than the Private Sector. Not trying to start a flame war as I honestly don't know about the situation in the UK, but in Ireland all the surveys show that the Public Sector earn around 30% more than the Private Sector.

Public sector salaries are currently higher than the private sector average, but that's in a large part because many low-paid jobs have been contracted out - hospital cleaners, school dinnerladies, etc.

If you compare jobs requiring similar skills, then the public sector doesn't pay very well and the career ladder isn't particularly long.

Wrong. A like for like comparison buy the IFS put the public sector premium at 7.5%.

Include pension entitlement, then this figures soars well into double digits.

MaxwellBygraves

Workers private and public unite. We're all being taken for a ride.

Stone Glider

'Wrong'? Please read what I wrote. The point is that there is no longer 'comparable' low paid jobs in the public sector.

APIII

Public/private, there are a lot of people in both sectors who have seen their pay and/or benefits eroded over the last few years. It isn't great, but it isn't "suffering". If you have a job and a pension you have something, even if it's not what you had previously. Iwas disappointed when my contributions went up by 50%, but so what? My employers run a business, so needs must.

finchy

Turnbull2000 wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Redjeep! wrote:

Are Public Sector salaries really lower than the Private Sector. Not trying to start a flame war as I honestly don't know about the situation in the UK, but in Ireland all the surveys show that the Public Sector earn around 30% more than the Private Sector.

Public sector salaries are currently higher than the private sector average, but that's in a large part because many low-paid jobs have been contracted out - hospital cleaners, school dinnerladies, etc.

If you compare jobs requiring similar skills, then the public sector doesn't pay very well and the career ladder isn't particularly long.

Wrong. A like for like comparison buy the IFS put the public sector premium at 7.5%.

Include pension entitlement, then this figures soars well into double digits.

I refer you to the answer I gave earlier.

verylonglegs

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Workers private and public unite. We're all being taken for a ride.

How exactly? Describe to me a realistic process where changes are made and what those changes will be?

BrianTrousers

I blame Wiggle.

redjeepǃ

Tom Butcher wrote:

According to this http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=1097 Irish hospital consultants are on about 85k for their public work - if that' s three times what they get in the UK you can have my race bike for free and I'll pay the postage.

sorry to everybody for dragging this back a couple of pages, but sleep and work got in the way.

Tom. I don't know where the €85k came from, but it's no where near reality. I've attached the Irish Medical payscales and although there's about 20 pages of consultants the minimum for a NEW ENTRANT consultant is around €185k, rising to about €284k for a 'Type B Professor' (no I don't know what that is either).

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/pdf/salary_scales_jan10.pdf

In contrast in the UK, a new entrant earns £74k rising to £100k after 8 years. Now I realise that this is only part of the story as it doesn't include the private patients, but in Ireland you can't see a consultant without it costing you the thick end of £150 -£200 per visit, which you may be able to claim back from a health insurance company.

http://www.hospitaldr.co.uk/features/hospital-doctors-pay-scales-for-20092010

So it looks like my earlier comment of treble wasn't too far of the mark. Tom - you don't need to send me your bike, just PM me your address and I'll arrange to have it collected.

Frank the tank

Smokin Joe wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

I doubt that very much.

If it was cheaper to keep people in work for the sake of it rather than laying them off and putting them on welfare there would be no such thing as unemployment, not only here but in any of the world's developed countries.

As no-one anywhere seems to have cracked that one it can't be.

You imply public sector jobs are non-jobs, don't think so.

In this country unemployed people are eligible for numerous benefits which when calculated probably amount to more than their wages for their non-job which needs not be done. No doubt you're happy to pick up litter in your locale,empty your own bin, maintain your street lighting,fix the pot holes in your road,police your neighbourhood, teach everyones children etc,etc.

Tom Butcher

Redjeep! wrote:

So it looks like my earlier comment of treble wasn't too far of the mark. Tom - you don't need to send me your bike, just PM me your address and I'll arrange to have it collected.

Nice try but the deal clearly was that you have to show me UK consultants earn a third of 85k - not that the Irish earn three times that. .

T

MaxwellBygraves

verylonglegs wrote:

MaxwellBygraves wrote:

Workers private and public unite. We're all being taken for a ride.

How exactly? Describe to me a realistic process where changes are made and what those changes will be?

I can't definitively say. In the immediate term, all public and private sector workers need to unite in solidarity against having to pay for the mistakes of a small minority. The wealthly neoliberal elite that rule rely on social divisions, ignorance and schisms to prevent common unity amongst workers. Beyond that, I can purely speculate - building a society based on people rather than profit and material wealth should be the ultimate aim. How that will come about, I am afraid to say, I don't have specific answersfor you.

What I can tell you, with absolute certainty, is that if we continue to do nothing and squabble amongst ourselves then nothing will change. You might agree that society is grossly unjust, but if you don't do anything about it, even in a small way, then nothing will change.

Pross

Smokin Joe wrote:

Now they know what the private sector have had to put up with for the last five years. We don't all work in banks.

No they don't - my company and many others in similar disciplines had to take cuts (actual terms not real terms) of 10 to 15% at the start of the downturn and have had pay freezes ever since (or more cuts in some cases). I would gladly have accepted a 2 year pay freeze and 1% pay rises for the next 2 years instead. But still, it's not a race to the bottom

Pross

Frank the tank wrote:

I work in the private sector and my pay has been effectively frozen for the last two years and for the next year to come. I take no pleasure at all in reading that the public sector workers are suffering the same fate. The loathing some on here SEEM to have towards public sector workers to me is illogical. They're working people for gods sake, who face the same daily problems as private sector workers.

They're not asking for sympathy, just moaning about the situation,like anyone would.

I agree with what you say to some extent (despite what my above post may suggest) but I have a problem with Union officials who make comments like "why should we pay for the mistakes of the private sector?". The financial situation has not been caused by the vast majority of the private sector - in fact you could argue that the deficit has more to do with the amount of money thrown into the private sector. It's not a case of loathing but it makes me wonder if many of the public sector workers or their Union reps have had any realisation of what has been going on in the private sector as companies have fought to survive the last 3 years. It also seems insulting that a Union leader earns over £90k per year that is funded by the very same 'low paid workers' that he keeps talking about. Perhaps he could set an example by accepting a salary of the average of his members?

BigJimmyB

LeicesterLad wrote:

Smokin Joe wrote:

Now they know what the private sector have had to put up with for the last five years. We don't all work in banks.

:roll: Why the bitterness? Nobody forced you to work in the private sector? And actually Public sector pensions often equate to less than that of the private sector, its not my fault your company are mugging you off. If you think public sector got it easy then you live in cloud cuckoo land or the 80's mate. And if you don't like it, get a job in civil service, (not easily done when theres no jobs going). Makes me laugh all the people on here acting like they were forced to work in the private sector, and it makes me angry that they think its down to the average public sector employee if there are benefits to be had.

I don't see any bitterness there at all, I think the poster was just saying that the Private sector in the main is no better off then the Public sector. Many other posts on here certainly seem to concur.

Fat Cat bosses in both, gving themselves tidy sums while your average Joe suffers.

Oh, and nobody forced Public Sector workers into the Public Sector either.....

As for pensions, the Public Sector managed to retain final salary schemes for far longer then the Private Sector, so I'd like to see some basis for your comment.

LeicesterLad

BigJimmyB wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

Smokin Joe wrote:

Now they know what the private sector have had to put up with for the last five years. We don't all work in banks.

:roll: Why the bitterness? Nobody forced you to work in the private sector? And actually Public sector pensions often equate to less than that of the private sector, its not my fault your company are mugging you off. If you think public sector got it easy then you live in cloud cuckoo land or the 80's mate. And if you don't like it, get a job in civil service, (not easily done when theres no jobs going). Makes me laugh all the people on here acting like they were forced to work in the private sector, and it makes me angry that they think its down to the average public sector employee if there are benefits to be had.

I don't see any bitterness there at all, I think the poster was just saying that the Private sector in the main is no better off then the Public sector. Many other posts on here certainly seem to concur.

Fat Cat bosses in both, gving themselves tidy sums while your average Joe suffers.

Oh, and nobody forced Public Sector workers into the Public Sector either.....

As for pensions, the Public Sector managed to retain final salary schemes for far longer then the Private Sector, so I'd like to see some basis for your comment.

My basis is why do we have to turn it into a Public versus Private, I couldn't give a sh*t who works for what or what they get in return. We all have jobs, most of us find ourselves in jobs not by choice but by necessity, and very few of us have jobs we actually like. We are all getting screwed, always have done. Only people who get it good are the well off. NOT the public sector minions, or the Private minions. If i was a banker taking a large bonus, or a high ranking Civil Servant getting a fat pay off, or a big pension, or a grossly overexagerate wage, then yes, lets argue over it, but none of us on here are those people, we are all just essentially low paid workers, trying to get paid fairly for what we do, Public and Private all any of us wants is a good wage, a nice pension pot, and to go home at the end of the day. Its not a battle between 'us and them, Public V Private', its a battle to get what we can for what we do, all of us. I don't know why this mentality exists on here.

daviesee

LeicesterLad wrote:

but none of us on here are those people, we are all just essentially low paid workers, trying to get paid fairly for what we do,

I put it to you that some people on here are doing very nicely indeed.

LeicesterLad

daviesee wrote:

LeicesterLad wrote:

but none of us on here are those people, we are all just essentially low paid workers, trying to get paid fairly for what we do,

I put it to you that some people on here are doing very nicely indeed.

Probably yes, but in this generalised discussion of Private versus Public, i assume we are talking about the majority, which would tend to be the minions. To be honest, i work for a Courthouse, with around 100 staff, theres 4 bosses, and 12 legal staff (so the minority). the legal staff get a hugely exagerated wage, 3 of the 4 bosses get a decent wage, the other gets an exagerated wage. The rest of us (the majority) are just low paid admin staff, team leaders and section managers. The job is shit, the pay is shit, we hung on to what used to be a good pension, but is now being eaten away at (the pension used to be compensation for sh*t pay, or at least that's how i always took it'. I'm 24, so whether i have a decent pension or not makes little difference to me for the next 40 years. I currently earn a below average wage, sturggle to pay the Rent, struggle with the weekly shop, and very rarely have money to go out and enjoy myself. And i think most people, whether it be Public sector or Private experience this.

bompington

I am paid reasonably highly (i.e. over UK average). I worked hard to get the qualifications I have, and I work hard now to earn my pay. I actually chose to go into teaching when I could (with a year's less studying) have gone into a job which would have paid me twice as much, both initially on graduation and long term.
So which salary is "fair"? Am I a greedy capitalist pig because I earn more than average, or a minion because I earn a lot less than I could?

The simplistic "poor v rich" division is as artificial and pointless as "public v private".

LeicesterLad

bompington wrote:

I am paid reasonably highly (i.e. over UK average). I worked hard to get the qualifications I have, and I work hard now to earn my pay. I actually chose to go into teaching when I could (with a year's less studying) have gone into a job which would have paid me twice as much, both initially on graduation and long term.
So which salary is "fair"? Am I a greedy capitalist pig because I earn more than average, or a minion because I earn a lot less than I could?

The simplistic "poor v rich" division is as artificial and pointless as "public v private".

It was less of a Poor V Rich arguement, because as you say, you make your own fortune, its more a Poor V Greedy arguement, put poor isn't the right word. I was just saying, basically, why turn on each other because of who we work for, when the majority of us are in the same boat?! Just seems ridiculous to me.

twistedmetal

Well I haven't had time to read all the posts on this thread being new to it but I have read the first page and part of this one. I thought I would ask someone the following question. What would the percentage pay cut be for someone who hasn't had a pay increase for over 10 years?? I am guessing it is greater than 15 % but what is is?

I am only asking because that is the situation we have had in our company. No pay rises for 10 years. I had one about 4 years ago and quite a nice one at that but it only happened because I changed my job within the company and took a lot more on.

Some of you might doubt that 10 years without a pay increase at our company but I assure you it is true. The company did go through a bit of difficulty a few years back but we are now more secure and indeed the company is actually growing quite quickly now and business is actually booming. What started out as a reasonably good paying company for unskilled and semi-skilled workers is now quite bad. Even agency staff get a lot more than some here. Why stay on? Well in our town there is not much going so for people tied to the area for whatever reason. A secure job in these times is important.

Anyway as a private sector worker all this talk of pensions and how much you have to contribute and how long before you can retire is all annoying. I can not afford a pension. I am struggling some months, particularly if something goes wrong with the house or car.

So you are not going to get as much!! So you have to wait another year!! Get some perspective! There are people worse off than you!! That goes to anyone whether public or private sector.

Personally I have no gripe with public sector workers. My gripe is the conning unions. I don't trust any of the well paid union executives. Might not be as well paid as the bankers but you can bet you last dollar (or pound) that most of the unions wouldn't turn the banker's pay packet down. Everyone is out for themselves and the sooner you all realise it the better. IF they do get the deal they want then someone will end up paying for it. Them> Us? (Whoever them and us is?) or does it come out of thin air? How about the bankers?? Nice idea and very popular until you don't end up with many tax paying bankers in the UK or some other negative thing happens. Perhaps a 60% tax on the rich? I heard that wouldn't even pay for much at all. Think I heard a figure where one union idea to raise money from taxing rich bankers would only pay for the salaries of the NHS workers for a really tiny period of time. Can't remember the figures but it wasn't in months put it that way!!

Sorry for the rant but I'm just a little stressed that I need new brakes for my car (needed to get to work and to get anywhere really), probably new tyres too, I need to pay back some family debts too and I have Xmas to pay for. All this and I'm having the feeling of drowning with the money worries. On top of that I'd like to be able to afford to sort my bike out so perhaps I could save a bit of money using that. And I'm reading and hearing about some whingers complaning about having to work to 66!! I'm of an age which is likely to work until 67 or later anyway. WHo knows I might need to work til 70 anyway. I've got no pension, can't afford it. How many public or private sector workersare in that position? How many like me are getting pissed off that those workers who can afford pensions are moaning about having to put in a bit more for it or wait 1 goddamm year longer to get it?!! Perspective please!! BTW east africa people are starving. Oh! And in India alone more kids die from starvation than in east africa too!! Lets whinge about that and not ourselves!!

daviesee

LeicesterLad wrote:

I'm 24, so whether i have a decent pension or not makes little difference to me for the next 40 years. I currently earn a below average wage, sturggle to pay the Rent, struggle with the weekly shop, and very rarely have money to go out and enjoy myself. And i think most people, whether it be Public sector or Private experience this.

Yes, they do. But they don't have to accept that they are stuck there. I was in your shoes once and may be there again one day but in the meantime I am doing my best to do better. More effort, less whining.
Life cycle - young, go out on the lash. 20's move out & find it's more expensive than you thought. 30 - kids, even more skint. 40 - Promoted and kids growing up, more cash - mamil. 50 - more cash, less fit. 60 - looking at retirement and realise you will be skint again.

TheStone

twistedmetal wrote:

Some of you might doubt that 10 years without a pay increase at our company but I assure you it is true.

Why would you stay?

squired

Wirral_Paul wrote:

For years the private sector has gradually seen the demise of the old style "Final Salary" style schemes which have been closing one after another to new members for a decade or more. Most companies now offer "Money Purchase" schemes where every employee has their own "pot" invested with the pension providers. What doesn't happen however is that those who have private Final Salary schemes aren't suddenly seeing the rules being changed on the pension they receive and when they receive it.

You may be surprised to hear this, but employees in private companies are being kicked out of final salary schemes. I know of one very large organisation (employs thousands) that recently told all staff the final salary scheme would be closing. As of X date they would switch to a DC pension. No debate, no alternatives. Like it or lump it.

redjeepǃ

squired wrote:

Wirral_Paul wrote:

For years the private sector has gradually seen the demise of the old style "Final Salary" style schemes which have been closing one after another to new members for a decade or more. Most companies now offer "Money Purchase" schemes where every employee has their own "pot" invested with the pension providers. What doesn't happen however is that those who have private Final Salary schemes aren't suddenly seeing the rules being changed on the pension they receive and when they receive it.

You may be surprised to hear this, but employees in private companies are being kicked out of final salary schemes. I know of one very large organisation (employs thousands) that recently told all staff the final salary scheme would be closing. As of X date they would switch to a DC pension. No debate, no alternatives. Like it or lump it.

This is true. I've seen it happen several times recently. Normally due to the massive hole in the funding that would probably sink the company otherwise.

Wirral_paul

squired wrote:

Wirral_Paul wrote:

For years the private sector has gradually seen the demise of the old style "Final Salary" style schemes which have been closing one after another to new members for a decade or more. Most companies now offer "Money Purchase" schemes where every employee has their own "pot" invested with the pension providers. What doesn't happen however is that those who have private Final Salary schemes aren't suddenly seeing the rules being changed on the pension they receive and when they receive it.

You may be surprised to hear this, but employees in private companies are being kicked out of final salary schemes. I know of one very large organisation (employs thousands) that recently told all staff the final salary scheme would be closing. As of X date they would switch to a DC pension. No debate, no alternatives. Like it or lump it.

No it doesnt surprise me at all - plenty will end up with both a Final Salary and a Money Purchase scheme. At least the companies identified that the cost situation of the pensions was becoming unsustainable and did something actually realistic about it, ie the years service already accrued is retained and will be paid come retirement under the Final Salary scheme rules. The government however seem hell bent on changing the rules for public sector workers. I can imagine the uproar if they tried to impose all the same changes on the State Pension - that's being changed far more subtly over a lot of years.

I think i'm very lucky with my job as the company is growing very quickly and i've seen a big increase in my salary (50%+) in 2 years at a time when it seems most are getting nothing. Unfortunately though I am in a position (Pensions and Investment specialist within a Financial Advisers) where I can see just how tough its going to be for everyone to live on their pension in future years - annuity rates are very low at present etc for those retiring with a Money Purchase scheme. Successive governments have been preaching for a number of years how we should all be saving for our own retirements - I have little doubt because they could see that State and Public Sector pensions were going to start costing a considerable chunk of the budget. Well I think we can all accept that public sector workers have all planned for their retirement based on the scheme rules they signed up for. To suddenly change those rules now simply because there's a deficit of contributions to pay the pensions after decades of governments using the excess as revenue to be spent (didnt Maxwell do just the same with the Mirror Group pension scheme?? ) seems pretty unfair on them to me - even if I as a tax payer will have to help fund their pensions.

bagpusscp

Simple really all of this.It is the demographic time bomb.Goverments have known about it for 20 years and did nothing.Something has had to give.Private /comany schemes have been addressing it.Now it is happening in the public sector.We are all the blame cos we are living longer. 8)
I have had private pension for most of my working life because many of the companies I worked for paid no pensions at all.This has been hit very hard by the fall in the stock market :shock: .No one is going to prop it up.I just have to hope it recovers when I need it.So welcome to the real world. I now work in the public sector and have no problem in paying more in to the scheme.I will not have got enough years service in to make it worth much anyway.
No one helps themselves more than those that do.

shouldbeinbed

millymoose wrote:

Why does it have to be a private v public battle? I work for a bank and have had no increase for 3 years and watch huge numbers of colleagues thrown on the scrap heap. I pay 12% of my salary towards my pension. It all sounds similar to the Public Sector and I also live month to month thinking am I next on the redundancy list.

I hate to say it but we are all in the same boat

Absolutely spot on,

TBH if my pay cut in real terms was only 15% I'd be jumping for joy, it'll be far worse. I've had my pay cut in real terms by that already over the last decade and thats before the cuts kicked in.

The bitterness and bile of some 'private sector' employees on here is not only aggravating and insultingly wide of the mark but these people should remember that there wasn't and never has been the same outpouring of antipathy and recrimination and twisted spiteful logic and shadenfreude at people losing money or jobs ever from the public sector rank and file staff towards them when they've gone through the same wringer.

The shameful gloating and venom and indiscriminate ignorant slating of huge numbers of people in very different and invariably equally modest circumstances, many of whom hold very different views and levels of acceptance, and in the haters parlance 'grip on reality', on the rights and wrongs of both sides of the argument, really does those people no credit whatsoever and makes them look very small minded, petty, unpleasant & gullible individuals easily lead by whatever tosh the gutter press spews out.

come on you spiteful aggressors: why are you spitting out the venom you are at the likes of me and mine when you don't know us or our circumstances?

I'm not the whitehall mandarin that is the media portrayal of the average public sector worker, but who in reality is no more representative of millions of people in thousands of different jobs than the casino bankers and fat cat executives are representative of the millions of private sector workers on the high streets.

My pay rise for over ten years has not kept pace with inflation, I have never even been close to the 40% tax bracket and I'm as well paid in my place as its possible to be after 20+ years hard graft and studying long and hard enough in my own time to have gained my sisters degree more than twice. I am in a cycle of a 3 year pay freeze that will undoubtedly go on longer, whilst inflation is increasing again and pension contributions WILL rise for less and later payout, 30% of us have already been made redundant and thats not the end, of those that remain, new and less staff friendly contracts have been enforced on us, the luckiest ones have only had a £4000 pay cut this time round, the less lucky have lost upto £9000, that is 30% of our wage and this is just round 1 - we know they will keep coming back until Cameron says enough. The redundancies have been done on the legal minimum payout, not a single penny or day of enhancement for people who averaged 20 years in the job, many had far longer.

We're not council funded expressive dance therapists or New Labour made up jobs in the last few years, we're qualified professionals who's jobs are essential to crime detection and dealing with the worst people can do to one another, we have been around for 100 years, we are at or on call to work 24/7/365. the new contracts will see full 365 days in work, I'm on call across Christmas and New Year and history has shown I will be called out, how many of you people that have posted what a lucky scrounging good for nothing so and so I am as a public sector employee will be free to have a glass of wine or beer with the turkey or lash it up on New Years Eve?
I've always happily and quietly accepted these privations in my job as my choice and never moaned about it or leapt up and down screaming how lucky others are in comaprison. Why should I have to take that level of boIIocks from people who've made other choices and now seem to think they have some sort of moral superiority or obligation to speak about me and people like me in such a dispicable and dismissive fashion with absolutely no grounding in knowledge at all.

Just to refute David Camerons latest little bit of horse**t disconnect between public and private sector. I do not have some magic pay the government nothing card. I PAY TAX AND ALL DEDUCTIONS at the right rate for my wage, I pay council tax, I pay VAT on my goods, My car is taxed. I AM JUST AS MUCH A TAXPAYER AS EVERYONE ELSE and what remains of my wage after that goes entirely into the private sector by way of mortgage, bills, groceries, goods and services etc. I pay your wages just as much as you pay mine.

I have no 'perks' to my job whatsoever - just like many in the private realm, but also far less than many millions more who do get christmas or productivity bonuses, staff discounts, health or other benefits or inducements, e.g. Supermarket employees get a staff discount to give them a cheaper shpping bill than the rest of us - why no spineless & spiteful outpourings at these people for making your shopping bill more expensive by their greed eh? don't they realise times are hard and the rest of us have to eat too and we pay their wages and blah blah blah?

I fully accept my current pension arrangements are good in comparison and I have absolutely no expectation that it will stay as it is, but my pension scheme (one of hundreds of entirely different public sector ones) is not simply a bag of your fivers in George Osborne's safe, like they would like you to believe and which you're all sucking up as if its gospel.
It has already made changes to maintain affordability and cut it's payout benefits, it invests in the stock market etc just like private ones do and generates most of its wealth and sustainability through its own business acumen. It is billions in credit through its business investment skill & not in any danger of asking the government or private sector for a bail out and in fact pumps money INTO the economy and private sector through these investments and dealings. Things may change in time and if they do, change will happen that will no doubt not be in my favour, so be it, but at the moment it isn't broken so why waste resources and time 'fixing' it when there are others in more need of attention.
Why should it be attacked again in some sort of communist experiment? Private sector schemes weren't attacked and raided to help the Mirror Group or Equitable Life and when the government stepped in to help out there most people thought it was a good thing. Why should every different public sector scheme be treated as a single entity any more than private sector ones are? If an individual scheme has shown no inclination to move with the times or if they are under the direct control of central government then fine but deal with them and the rest individually. Mine has moved with the times - undoubtedly will do again, pays its own way and doesn't come direct form central funds/taxation, so why should we pretend and be treated as if its different.

so come on any of you haters and ranters (I know, pots and kettles) that have got this far, justify your blanket venom.

derbygrimpeur

this stuff is getting so boring. I work in the private sector, and in for a bank at that. I'm never going to convince public sector workers that the pension reforms are fair and necessary, like they're not going to convince me that they're not.

Whether private v public has it better is not the point that needs debating. The question is, does the government need to spend less money to reduce the defecit. The answer is yes. That can't be disputed.

Given that the current final salary scheme and retirement age for public sector pensions was introduced decades ago when the population was lower and life expectancy was shorter, is it reasonable that this policy should be reviewed from time to time given updated information about these facts and anticipated costs of the scheme. Yes it is (in my opinion, and I really think people would struggle to argue against that).

Those affected by the proposed changes are not likely to be happy about them, but I wouldn't expect them to be (and nor would anyone I would guess). But they've got to look at the bigger picture, this isn't just about them. Do you want the UK to go the way of Greece, Spain, Ireland or wherever's next? If not, cuts need to be made. I'm affected by cuts in other ways, some of which I don't think are fair. But I see that they are necessary and am prepared to put up with that for the greater good.

Tom Butcher

But there are a lot of people not paying more. Stuff like bankers bonuses - often banks which we bailed out with our money - they aren't inconsequential sums we are talking about - best part of 10 billion this year I think - that's not their salary just their bonus. Executive pay rises averaging 45%. Over the last 20 years the gap between the highest paid and the average paid has escalated many many fold. But we are constantly told it's impossible to tackle this because they'd all move abroad - go and work somewhere else. So we are supposed to sit back and take it while inequality in this country is higher than at any time since Victoria was on the throne.

Cameron and his mates from top private schools carry on coining it in at the expense of everyone else. It's only a few months ago that there were strong calls from within the Tory party to scrap to 50% tax bracket on top earners ffs - you just know that they are going to do that as soon as they can get away with it politically. If this govt was serious about reducing inequality then I think most people would accept cuts - but not surprisingly people look at one part of society getting hideously rich - that's on wealth created by society not then - and it stinks.

Pross

The thing is it is a tiny part of the population that are getting hideously rich and they will continue to find ways to do so no matter what as they can pay people to save them money. I don't like it anymore than you but it has always happened and I really don't think anything will stop it (that's not to say the Government shouldn't at least try though).