another elixir problem

paultownsend

i never felt the elixir 5's on my camber expert were quite right. i got an official bleed kit and they got better (less spongy) but i eventually sent them back to the shop, and they did a full fluid change/bleed.


they came back better, but still not perfect, or as i expect after riding other bikes.

dont get me wrong, when they are perfect, they are perfect. to get them perfect, the night before a ride i get two zip ties and pull each lever back to the bars as far as i can to lock the brakes. hey presto, by the time im ready to ride they are very firm with no spongyness.

after around 15 miles, they get further back to the bars, and spongier. the power is there, but not the feel. i start crushing my fingers, and i like one finger braking

is this just a case of air in the system still? its not the pads as there pretty new avid originals

any help would be excellent as i have to send the brakes away, and i hate not being able to ride.....

nicklouse

Yep still air in the system.

baznav73

To get a good bleed on an avid you have to follow their instruction to the letter and where a lot of people and shops cut corners is degassing the fluid, the more time you spend on that step the better the bleed and only use dot 5.1 fluid.

Neal_

Why only use DOT 5.1 fluid? It has a higher boiling point than DOT 4 but this is only really necessary for motorbikes on tracks. I'm using DOT 4 as I believe it's less hygroscopic than DOT 5.1

nicklouse

The viscosity is different as well as is the wet boiling and the dry.

Dot will work fine but the feel is slightly different.

You could also use DOT3. In fact some DOT3 is better than many DOT5.1 fluids in many areas but as they do not reach the DOT5.1 standard they can not be classed as such.

paultownsend

nicklouse wrote:

The viscosity is different as well as is the wet boiling and the dry.

Dot will work fine but the feel is slightly different.

You could also use DOT3. In fact some DOT3 is better than many DOT5.1 fluids in many areas but as they do not reach the DOT5.1 standard they can not be classed as such.

So which one guys? Dot 4? As to the feel, is dot 4 slightly thicker?

benpinnick

If you do go for a lower DOT fluid, change it more often as the lower boiling point is problematic as the water gets in.

nicklouse

benpinnick wrote:

If you do go for a lower DOT fluid, change it more often as the lower boiling point is problematic as the water gets in.

Very odd comments.

And not really related.

Neal_

paultownsend wrote:

So which one guys? Dot 4? As to the feel, is dot 4 slightly thicker?

To be honest I don't think it really matters if you use DOT 4 or 5.1, it all does the same job and I doubt you'd notice any difference between the two. There's no need to buy race versions of either though, I just use Halfords own brand stuff.

Expelling all the air is the most important thing so make sure you compress and decompress the syringe a few times or until no more bubbles appear.

paultownsend

i have some castrol super dot 4 that i use in the mk2 golf. big brakes on her, from the label its the same as the usual stuff, just a higher boil point

Neal_

That'll be fine but if the bottle was opened more than about 6 months ago it will probably have absorbed water already, I'm not really sure how much that will effect the fluid so it'll probably still be fine but just have a lower boiling point than stated on the bottle.

benpinnick

nicklouse wrote:

benpinnick wrote:

If you do go for a lower DOT fluid, change it more often as the lower boiling point is problematic as the water gets in.

Very odd comments.

And not really related.

Not odd at all, if you know the difference between DOT fluids.

johnsav

how about just going with what the manufacturer recommends?

Neal_

Ah, that'll clear it up...

http://www.sram.com/sites/default/files ... _rev_a.pdf

...so that'll be DOT4 or DOT 5.1 then

baznav73

Was warned against using dot 4 by sram tech centre as it is silicone based and there was a risk of seal swelling, they recommended sticking with 5.1 only.

cooldad

Neal_ wrote:

Ah, that'll clear it up...

http://www.sram.com/sites/default/files ... _rev_a.pdf

...so that'll be DOT4 or DOT 5.1 then

Because as you said before, it doesn't actually make a blind bit of difference.
Halfords stuff stops my car with no issues, I'm sure it won't struggle with a bike.

@baznav73 - DOT5 is silicone. DOT 3, 4 and 5.1 are glycol based.

DickBarton

Why not remove top cap and replace air with fluid...I'm assuming leaving your brakes locked on will move air up the system to the lever...so top it up so there is less air to begin with. Also move your levers in in so you don't crush your fingers...1 finger braking should be done by your finger right at the end of the lever so you get most braking force...

paultownsend

going to bleed again tomorrow. i will follow the avid instructions, but do you think i should do it when the brakes are spongy after a 3 hour ride, or after a night of the levers being pulled back so the feel is firm? im trying to think, do you think this is because the air is in the lever/mc

The Northern Monkey

I dunno what my LBS did but I had the same problem with my elixir R's until taking it to them for a bleed.

All they seemed to do was attach the syringe to the lever, de-gas through the lever (not sure if they had the lever open or closed, I couldn't tell), and then use the fluid in the syringe to top up the brake line.

Brakes are miles better now!

The main problem with lower end avids is they have no bite adjust. When the pad wears, the calliper piston thing doesn't reset so it has to move further making the lever travel further.

paultownsend

[The main problem with lower end avids is they have no bite adjust. When the pad wears, the calliper piston thing doesn't reset so it has to move further making the lever travel further.[/quote]

exactly! but they dont wear from a 20 mile ride! then magicly regrow material when locked overnight. iv tried new (expensive avid) pads. no joy.

im thinking bench bleeding is better. so i can get the bleed screws pointing upwards when the the syringes are undone. so no fluid can dribble out?

but then what about locking the levers on as per avids instructions? what does this actually do?

supersonic

The main problem with lower end avids is they have no bite adjust. When the pad wears, the calliper piston thing doesn't reset so it has to move further making the lever travel further.

All closed hydraulic brakes auto adjust to pad wear. Or should! Has nothing to do with bite adjust.

The problem here is that the bleed is very sensitive. Use fresh fluid, and make sure is fully degassed. Tapping the lever and caliper sharply can free some bubbles.

The Northern Monkey

lol fair enough, mine certainately dont anyway! The less pad I have, the more the lever moves!

and thats on 2 different bikes with the same brakes lol... no sticky pistons!

Bannelio

I found my elixir 5 awful no matter what I did, I did as you have bought the official kit for bleeding them and still the lever was pulling all the way back to the bar and very spongey. I sent them back as they were just not right and they sent me another brand new set and again after one ride of mearly 8 miles the problem was worse than the first set so I sent them back again and got the CR's fine for about 3-4 rides and again the same problem. Great when they worked but back to the same old problem. I went back to the shop and with the brakes and went for what I originally wanted a set of hope tech M4 with braided hoses on 203 floating rotors. Alot more money but it was so worth it after all, fantasticly Powerful brakes and so easy to service and bleed and loads of adjustment on the levers I cannot rate them enough.