Think I bought a stolen frame... need advice...

projexon

Apologies if this isn't the right place to discuss this, but I've just come over to the UK from the states and purchased a frame, not sure about the laws over here regarding serial numbers. I took delivery today of a 2009 Specialized Rockhopper Comp frame and when I got it home I immediately looked at the bottom to find the serial and check it out on a database just to see if it was stolen but the serial is gone... as in filed/cut away.

I've looked everywhere I can for an immobitag or some similar product, even using a snake scope inside the frame, but there is none. Also, there are no distinguishing marks on the bike as far as hand done numbers, names, scarring, laser etching. Nothing. The frame is pristine and the only issue is the serial has been removed, but I sincerely feel rotten that someone more than likely doesn't have a bike now and I do.

Is it illegal to own a bicycle in the UK without a serial or serial obviously removed?? What should I do? I contacted the person I bought it from, have known this guy for a while as he's a friend of my in-laws, is in his 60's and always been straight up, but definitely know he wouldn't have bought this without the number if he knew where to look, he said he bought it in a car boot sale a few months back so trace back is probably futile. Advice please!!!

cooldad

Not much you can do really is there?

delcol

the laws in this foooked up country seem to favour the rogues and criminals.. it's the innocent working class that get shat upon......

i aint to sure if having a frame, with no serial no is illegal but it definatley points towards being dodgey.. ie concealing the frames identity....

i guess the worst you would be looking at is receiving stolen goods or handling stolen goods.. not sure what that mean for you.....

mattyg2004

I think your supposed to hand in to a police station as lost property then if it remains unclaimed after 3 months you can collect and keep.


However in this situation I would just keep. The after theft sale has been done well before it reached you so your hardly aiding the sale of stolen goods.

1mancity2

Not illegal to own a frame with no serial.

craker

Heck I bought a brand new frame from a bike shop with no serial, not that I've found anyway. Only downer is that I couldn't get it insured without a serial no.

projexon

cooldad wrote:

Not much you can do really is there?

Talked to 5 people about it already and they all said the same. They've said you can't do anything about it so just move on and enjoy building the bike. :?

Thanks for the replies guys. On top of feeling sh** about it possibly being someone's frame, I'm on a spousal visa and on probation for 2 years before I apply for ILR and I've got a squeaky clean record, just don't want anything to endanger my right to stay here with my wife.

Another thing I'm worried about, with the serial gone, will a LBS even touch it for any work I need done?? I don't have any of my parktools here for another 6 months and I'm going to need headset/cups installed, cassette installed, cranks/bb installed and was going to pay the LBS to do it all in one go after I do the custom paint job.

Lesson to all, don't lack common sense like me, get the serial info before you pay and take delivery on a frame. I've bought tons of bikes in the states and always looked at the serial first before the transaction. I guess it was just because of who I bought it from, I didn't even think to look, just took it for granted it would be there.

1mancity2

LBS should still do the jobs, how do they know it wasn't you who removed the serial?

what custom paint job you going for?

Im thinking of doing my frame acid yellow with black but still unsure.

projexon

Just going to make it black base with deep red accents, do custom logos/decals to look of blood splatter under the clear so if and when it gets scuffed I can just wet sand it and reshoot it with clear if it's not too bad. I've always at the very least put all my other bikes under a protective layer, and I plan on this one being the nicest I've done, so why stop here. I'm actually about to start the design in photoshop in the next few days. I've done the occasional custom logo but never done a full bicycle decal design before, hope it goes well. Need to find a decent paint shop in Swindon now...

bails87

The LBS shouldn't care, for all they know you bought it from a police auction. Or it was originally yours, got stolen and then recovered after the thief had filed off the number.

But no, the laws don't make it illegal to own a bike with no serial number.

It definitely looks dodgy, but there's no way it'll get back to the original owner as it can't be identified now, that's IF it really was stolen. If you're getting it resprayed then the filed away area will be painted over and no-one will be able to tell the difference anyway.

I'm not sure what delcol means re: laws being against innocent people, hopefully as a 'foreigner' yuo haven't experienced that here! But anyway, if you want to be good you could take it to your local police station. They might just say 'thanks, but keep it'. Or they might want to hold onto it for a while to see if the original owner turns up. But seeing as it could have been stolen anywhere and has gone through at least 3 owners since then, and was bought off an anonymous car booter, I wouldn't expect them to do much.

As for respraying, Argos Cycles in Bristol aren't too far away from you, and are normally the default option.

Anonymous

Doesn't matter about the serial number, there's no legal status for them, no central registry (you can register them though). They're really just a manufacturer stamp.

However you can be done for "receiving stolen goods" if there was some proof. e.g. owner saw you riding it and recognised something, has a photo of them owning it, etc. Usually though if it came to that, they'd just take it off you and that's it.

If you're concerned, just chat to the local police and see what they say. They'll be unwilling to do much with their limited resources, but they might offer to log the details which covers you. If they're happy that it's now yours, they can stamp the bike also with an ID. This is recommended in addition to serial numbers anyway and the do sessions where people can bring bikes to be stamped.

Armed with something official from them, there's no worry if anyone asks. Only issue then is if the real owner turned up.

diy

You can't sell what is not yours to sell, I think I'd ask the seller for an explanation. Personally I'd be looking to get my money back, particularly if I paid a fair price. Right now he has your money and potentially you have nothing. If you got it cheap, then you may well be exposed.

If you decide to keep it and subsequently it turns out to be stolen, the important thing is not to make up a story or attempt to deceive. The moment you lie about it you are bang to rights on receiving stolen goods.

The offence is broad - its defined in sec 22 of the Theft 1968 (heavily amended since, so read with caution)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/22

The problem with thieves is they often get caught and will happily tell plod who they sold it to.

cooldad

Bought at a car boot sale.
Personally I don't see it as a big issue. Effectively it's an untraceable bike frame, about as likely to have consequences as jay is to make 13.
The cops would say thanks, chuck it in a storeroom, and sell it at auction.

delcol

bails it's just me getting old and having a bitch at how this country is run and how its ethics are wrong.... :roll:

supersonic

diy wrote:

You can't sell what is not yours to sell, I think I'd ask the seller for an explanation. Personally I'd be looking to get my money back, particularly if I paid a fair price. Right now he has your money and potentially you have nothing. If you got it cheap, then you may well be exposed.

If you decide to keep it and subsequently it turns out to be stolen, the important thing is not to make up a story or attempt to deceive. The moment you lie about it you are bang to rights on receiving stolen goods.

The offence is broad - its defined in sec 22 of the Theft 1968 (heavily amended since, so read with caution)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/section/22

The problem with thieves is they often get caught and will happily tell plod who they sold it to.

Or he could say he had no idea about the frame number being removed if this was ever brought up. He can only be done for handling stolen goods if he knows or believes them to be so. He certainly doesn't know that: removal of frame number is not knowledge of theft nor evidence it is stolen, although the recipient may believe they are.

Play dumb!

MountainMonster

Personally if you trust the guy you bought it from, and say he is a stand up guy, why doubt him now? Maybe he had a chat with the original owner when he bought.

And DIY, are you really saying you would get your money back just because the frame numbers arn't there, and there's a 20% chance it's stolen? You come out with some interesting stuff dude.

JonnyN

You theiving scumbag! Gimme my frame back!

:P

projexon

MountainMonster wrote:

Personally if you trust the guy you bought it from, and say he is a stand up guy, why doubt him now?

Definitely trust him, don't doubt him at all and I know he wouldn't do something shady against me. I'm sure it was more ignorance than anything, I've just never purchased an item with a removed serial number and losing my visa isn't worth a bike, ya know?

I gave him 70 quid for the frame which I considered fair considering the great condition and not knowing about the serial, he said he gave 50 for it knowing only it was in great shape, and his wife told him Specialized made top bikes and not some Argos-muddyfox special.

JonnyN wrote:

You theiving scumbag! Gimme my frame back!

:shock:

Again, thanks for all the replies guys. After reading all these and talking with numerous people face to face I've come to the conclusion that I really can't do anything about it as it's not marked in any discernible way and can't trace it back to the original owner to find out the real circumstances. I do pride myself on being a law abiding citizen and I have no intentions of stepping out of line whilst I'm on probation, but the fuzz will probably keep it for 3 months whilst nobody can come to pick it up as there aren't any identifying marks, or they'll keep it and auction it and I'll be out 70 quid, either way it'll be a hassle that I am not going to put myself through unneeded.

I'm going to stamp my own number on the bike myself before the new paint job and also put an immobitag in it and register it.

Thanks for the advice!!

MountainMonster

Projexon wrote:

MountainMonster wrote:

Personally if you trust the guy you bought it from, and say he is a stand up guy, why doubt him now?

Definitely trust him, don't doubt him at all and I know he wouldn't do something shady against me. I'm sure it was more ignorance than anything, I've just never purchased an item with a removed serial number and losing my visa isn't worth a bike, ya know?

I gave him 70 quid for the frame which I considered fair considering the great condition and not knowing about the serial, he said he gave 50 for it knowing only it was in great shape, and his wife told him Specialized made top bikes and not some Argos-muddyfox special.

JonnyN wrote:

You theiving scumbag! Gimme my frame back!

:shock:

Again, thanks for all the replies guys. After reading all these and talking with numerous people face to face I've come to the conclusion that I really can't do anything about it as it's not marked in any discernible way and can't trace it back to the original owner to find out the real circumstances. I do pride myself on being a law abiding citizen and I have no intentions of stepping out of line whilst I'm on probation, but the fuzz will probably keep it for 3 months whilst nobody can come to pick it up as there aren't any identifying marks, or they'll keep it and auction it and I'll be out 70 quid, either way it'll be a hassle that I am not going to put myself through unneeded.

I'm going to stamp my own number on the bike myself before the new paint job and also put an immobitag in it and register it.

Thanks for the advice!!

Sounds like your thinking a bit clearer now Glad to hear it!

diy

supersonic wrote:

Or he could say he had no idea about the frame number being removed if this was ever brought up. He can only be done for handling stolen goods if he knows or believes them to be so. He certainly doesn't know that: removal of frame number is not knowledge of theft nor evidence it is stolen, although the recipient may believe they are.

Play dumb!

That is the very definition of handling stolen goods, in the event that they turn out to be stolen.

Obviously its very hard to prove what a person "believes" as only they know that, so its defined as being between Suspicion and knowledge.

If your suspicion is based on some facts (as it is in this case), then it is defined as "belief". For the purposes of the act if you say to yourself "I cannot say I know for certain that these goods are stolen, but there can be no other reasonable conclusion", then you have a belief that they are stolen.

There is also a concept of recklessness or wilful blindness (aka playing it dumb) to the circumstances; either will be treated as a belief that the goods are stolen. Thus, suspicion will be converted into belief when the facts are so obvious that belief may safely be imputed.

The common examples actually include buying goods with the serial nos removed.

My caution was not really the requirement not to know or believe it to be stolen, but the basic concept of mens rea (the guilty mind). Hence the moment you start concocting a story, is the moment you confirm the guilty mind.

Sorry to be anal, but

I'm going to stamp my own number on the bike myself before the new paint job and also put an immobitag in it and register it.

is a very stupid thing to do. why don't you get your money back and buy one that does not lead you to ask questions. When you buy stolen bike parts you encourage people to steel bikes. If the stolen parts have no value because people wont buy them, then you hit the market for them.

supersonic

Serial numbers are sometimes removed by non official dealers, prototype frames, frames sold with no manufacturer warranty, and oe goods.

nicklouse

and some totally genuine frames do not have numbers either.

Mrs Toast

I'm on a spousal visa and on probation for 2 years before I apply for ILR and I've got a squeaky clean record, just don't want anything to endanger my right to stay here with my wife.

Bloody immigrants, coming over here and stealing our jobs, our wimmin and our bikes!

[/daily mail]

Markmjh

I remember searching all over my old Norco hardtail for a number with no luck!

diy

So if there is a genuine reason why it could legitimately not have a serial number, then we are back to mere suspicion again, which is not enough to be "belief" unless its backed up by a conclusion that it probably is stolen.

projexon

diy wrote:

is a very stupid thing to do. why don't you get your money back and buy one that does not lead you to ask questions. When you buy stolen bike parts you encourage people to steel bikes. If the stolen parts have no value because people wont buy them, then you hit the market for them.

Since there is no way to trace it back to the original owner, which I WOULD do if I could (why would I even have posted here otherwise?) how is it being stupid respraying and immobitagging (which I would've done anyway) a frame I'm claiming as mine to help avoid having some silly gimp nick something I built with my own two??

I've had 2 decent bikes stolen in the states, both recovered, but I know how it feels to lose a project and wouldn't wish that on anybody. It's a kick in the ba**s plain and simple. I appreciate the advice, I sincerely do, but I'd appreciate it even more, as I'm sure others would, if you weren't so condescending and damning with your generalisations about how I "encourage people to steel bikes" just because I got a nice frame for a decent deal, but it happens to have had the serial numbers removed and can't be traced to original owner. Those are the only facts of the matter.

Suspicion and outright belief are two different things and I believe the person I bought it from 1) didn't steal it and 2) didn't think it was stolen, otherwise I believe he wouldn't have sold it to me and I know he wouldn't have bought it himself. Suspicion led me to start this topic, belief led me to decide my course of action after taking advice, opinions and all known facts into account, so abiding by your interpretation of the law, that exonerates me of any wrongdoing. Yes?

I've discussed the situation with him, he actually offered a refund without me asking, I rejected the notion outright because it would be a hinderance to him and he's a good, respectable bloke. If I had ANY notion whatsoever that I could find out the origins and backstory about the frame, I would take the avenue available. Considering my situation, if I now thought it was a dodgy situation, I'd have taken the refund and that would've been it. But I don't. So... The end. Thanks again for all the replies folks, hopefully it won't take long to sort out the build and get it rolling.

Mrs Toast wrote:

Bloody immigrants, coming over here and stealing our jobs, our wimmin and our bikes!

[/daily mail]

She stole me from the states actually. :P

diy

Look you either keep it and risk it, in which case don't try to hide its identity or lack of just in case, or you say I think its suspect and get your money back. But you are asking people what is the best thing to do is on a public Internet forum.

It does sound like there could be legitimate reasons for the removal of the number, so there is no reason to think its nicked just because the numbers are missing. However, if you start mucking about trying to conceal the missing number you make it hard to argue that you didn't believe it wasn't nicked.

glenwatt

For my penny's worth. Why have a lot of manufacturers moved over to putting the frame numbers on stickers instead of stamping the frame, does this not aid the stolen bike market.

blablablacksheep

simple answer nothin you can do.

good example of this is Caravans being nicked in this country, its funny enough a big crime(i know people actually stealing them, how sad)

But when they are nicked and re-sold, if you buy one and report it to police heres what happends 90% of time....(friend in police )

You report it, or you get stopped by the police during one of their crackdowns on the motoway to stop Caravan crime and then get told your in possession of stolen Caravan...

If you bought it not knowing its nicked the police sieze the Caravan and give you paperwork which you then have to fill in and "make a claim" .

The only way to get money back is, if the person who sold it to you is caught selling nicked goods, but most of time they themselfs are the victims as well as you....

So it goes up the chain untill they catch the person..which rarely happends.

Point is, no 1 ever gets their money back once caravan is seized by police 90% of time, only those buying from dealers who sold the stolen goods tend to fair better off....

So like others have said it actually sometimes pays not to own up and do the right thing sadly...

diy

Sorry but that is not correct. It may be how plod sees its from his criminal law angle, but when you buy something you enter in to a contract for them to supply and you to pay. If they supply something that is stolen no matter how much of a victim they may also be, they are liable to you for the contract. You cannot sell something you don't own. Slam dunk in any county court, happens on a daily basis. It is for them to pursue the person they bought it from for their damages and so on, either until the trail goes cold or there is no money to be had.

Most law firms will even do fixed price recovery, subject to a credit check of the seller. If the value is less than 5k its even easier to do yourself.

Anonymous

GlenWatt wrote:

For my penny's worth. Why have a lot of manufacturers moved over to putting the frame numbers on stickers instead of stamping the frame, does this not aid the stolen bike market.

Hence get it stamped, marked or even chipped perhaps yourself. The police in the UK offer to do bike stamps etc.

Doesn't stop it getting stolen. The thief doesn't care, so long as they can flog it down the market/pub/wherever and move onto the next bike.

Only help is in getting it back but chances are still very slim. Sadly insurance is the way to go and the thieves know that (if they nick from your house they'll even wait a bit and do you over again knowing insurance has paid up for a nice replacement).