Wheel advice - XM719 vs Flows

BikeBen

Hi Everyone

Thanks for reading my post. I'm afraid its another wheel advice thread, but I wanted people's opinions. I've recently got back into riding having not done so for a while, bad i know! I want to upgrade my wheels. I'm currently riding an Azonic DS-1 (Old school) which is quite frankly set up for street, trails and jumping which is the riding I used to do. I'm now riding more aggressive XC and trails. I'm in the process of pretty much upgrading the whole bike (thinking maybe Ragley blue pig or piglet but that's another story.). At the mo I'm concentrating on wheels replacing my 10 year old Mavic D521 on LX hubs) I'm 65 kg and ride reasonably smoothly, I ride mostly trails but do like to go for it down the downhills and do some drops and the odd jump too but nothing massive.

I want to go Hope pro II evo for the hubs and thinking either XM719 (Merlin build), EN 521 (Hope Hoop) or FLows (Hope Hoops) for the rims. I suppose I'm leaning towards the XM719s for their weight but then I like the idea of having a nice strong rim like the EN521 as I've always had strong rims and like the idea of having not to worry about them (but they do weigh 2kg!). I'm definitely a Mavic guy but heard good things about the Stan Flows but I don't want to run tubless and not convinced by the fact that they dont have re-inforced eyelets. Hard to explain just always had Mavics and know they can do the job.

I suppose I'm looking for anyone who has got/had any of the above wheels and can provide feedback either way. I know I'll be pretty much OK with any of the above rims just need a shove in the right direction.

Thanks in advance for anyone that provides their advice. It's much appreciated.

Cheers!

Ult

Can't comment on the 719's but I bought a set of Flows with Hope hubs this time last year. I am 19 stone + and have done most of the CRC Marathons, Dyfi Enduro, Trans Wales (and all the Trans Wales training) on them since then so literally thousands of KM's. Hit rocks, crashed regularly and even hit a hidden tree stump at speed and not even a broken spoke. Given that I am a big old unit and they have had a hammering, I think that is pretty impressive. Only question is, given that you are half my weight could you get away with something lighter? Crests perhaps?

BikeBen

Hi Ult

Thanks for your response. Whilst something lighter than my current wheels would be awesome I'm not watching the grams too much but I think if i could get a set that are 200-300 grams lighter than my current set-up (D521, LX hubs) I would be happy. Which is why the XM719 or Flow seems like the ideal choice. Thanks again.

Northwind

The Arch is a closer match for the 719... Still stronger apparently (haven't used one myself).

Flow is a great rim though, in the same strength class as the 721 yet lighter, wider I think, and tubeless ready. World cup downhill winner... Mine have been great, they're slightly softer than my 721s so they bruise more easily, but no less strong overall. The lack of eyelets doesn't seem to be a problem, unless you want your wheel built extremely tight when it seems like it might become more of an issue- you'll find pics of Stans rims on the internet with cracked spoke holes but then, same is true of Mavic, it's a natural failure point for any wheel that lasts long enough without getting smooshed.

.blitz

Can't comment on Flows but I have some 719s on XT and some EN521s on SLX, both from Merlin.

The 719s make a fabulous trail wheel, the extra width over the XC717 allows more generous tyre widths for only a small penalty in weight. XT hubs roll very well.

The EN521s are strong - really strong - and noticeably tougher and tighter than the 719s but also quite a bit heavier. Would suit a long-forked hardtail or a bigger FS rig but probably OTT for average red route stuff unless you are fairly careless or in the habit of smashing down hills.

If you ride with a bit of finesse but are not looking for XC lightness you won't be disappointed with the 719s. The 521s are harder-hitting and heavier but just as good in their own way.

BikeBen

Thanks Northwind and Blitz

Stupid question, with the flows I don't have to go tubeless, do I? I just don't really see the point, seems like a fair bit of effort for little reward. I suppose whilst I appreciate the Flows are strong and light I'm wondering if they're too wide? Whilst within 18 months I'd like to think I would have upgraded my frame they will be going on to my DS-1 at the mo and there isn't loads of tyre clearance at the mo (with a D521 and a Tioga DH 2.1" tyre).

Blitz, do you notice the weight difference between the EN521 and the XM719? is it alot? Is the idea of riding up hills with the EN521s a sily one?

The only other point I'll make is that the EN521 would end up being about 2kg and the flows I think about 1.88kg I could easily make up the weight different by choosing a lighter tyre?

I know I'm other thinking this but would like to get it right.

Thanks everyone.

.blitz

BikeBen wrote:

do you notice the weight difference between the EN521 and the XM719? is it alot? Is the idea of riding up hills with the EN521s a sily one?

There's a noticeable difference but mainly in terms of acceleration. Once the 521s are rolling they compensate for their weight by carrying momentum and being a little more direct - there is absolutely no twanginess going on whereas you can feel the 719s 'give' a little and they are a bit more comfortable in this respect although still very stiff compared to OE wheels.

Riding up hill with the 521s is not a problem they are not that heavy just heavier than 719s. A certain amount depends on the wheel build of course but there wouldn't be much point in having 521s with lightweight db spokes and spindly hubs.

supersonic

521 is a about 540g, the 719 about 460g (721 is 590g, the 717 is 395g). All are good rims. Stans tend to be wider for the weight, no eyelets dropping a bit of lard off them.

Northwind

BikeBen wrote:

Stupid question, with the flows I don't have to go tubeless, do I? I just don't really see the point, seems like a fair bit of effort for little reward.

Well... I'm a tubeless fan, it's not so much that I used to get a lot of punctures, just that they always knew exactly when to strike! While running late, or caught in a rainstorm, or halfway down the epic descent you've been waiting for all day, or right in the middle of a race run. Losing a little more weight is welcome too. But it can be a faff, that's for sure.

BikeBen wrote:

The only other point I'll make is that the EN521 would end up being about 2kg and the flows I think about 1.88kg I could easily make up the weight different by choosing a lighter tyre? .

Do both? Weight difference should be more though, not sure how much my pro2s on Flows with comps are, but there should be at least 250g difference.

BikeBen

Thank again guys for all the advice.

I suppose I'm choosing between XM719 which will be OK for 90% of what I ride and mean I'm carrying around less weight and the EN521 which are overkill for most of what I ride but I have the piece of mind that they'll stand up to anything if I land a drop badly or have a tumble. Kind of a choice only I can make I suppose.

Spokes-wise I'm thinking DT comp spokes for either if its a Merlin build or I think they come with Sapim race spokes if its Hope hoop build, any thoughts? Am I right to go for DT comp over the ACI stainless steel double butted ones as standard?

Northwind, the weights I quoted were reverse worked out from the weight of the Hope hoop builds which you can find online. ( I say reverse worked out as there isn't actually a hope hoop with the XM719 so took the weights for one of the others subtracted the rim weight and added the XM719 rim weight). So more than likely they are not 100% accurate.

For me I find I don't really get punctures and like running my tyres with a reasonable amount of pressure so I just think 'why go tubeless' really.

Thanks again.

supersonic

ACI spokes are just as good as DT - just make sure are double butted.

davewalsh

I'm currently running a Flow on the front and an XM719 on the back. Strength wise they're both pretty simalar (I'm 18 stone with not much finesse and haven't bent either of them).
The advantage of the Flow is that it's a wider rim that will support the tyres better. I've got a 2.25 Ardent on the 719 and I can feel it squirming occasionally, however the 2.35 Minion on the Flow doesn't. It won't affect the size of your current 2.1 tyre much (less than 1mm per side) but will definately support larger tyres better if you want to go bigger in future.
The only downside to the Flow is that it's only rated to a maximum of about 40PSI so you can't run high pressures for road work etc.

BikeBen

Thanks Davewalsh and Supersonic for the advice.

Has anyone got advice on which spokes to go for, is it worth paying an extra £9.00 a wheel for DT comp spokes or are the ACI s/s double butted ones fine? On their website they imply that the standard ones are more for XC and that the DT comp provide a stronger wheel as they suggest them for freeride but they haven't exactly made it clear.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

diy

I have flows - they are bomb proof, but agree with the view that you could get away with the lighter rim like the crest.
its only 300g difference though and the flows are a lot stronger.

supersonic

The ACI DB spokes are the equivalent of the standard DT DB Comp spoke. Probably actuallt better.

BikeBen

Supersonic, I'll bow down to your superior knowledge but if that's really the case how come DT comp spokes are £9.00 a wheel more than the ACIs? I assume they are both 2.0mm/1.8mm/2.0mm double butted so apart from the actual grade of steel used they must be pretty similar in performance? I just wonder if the DT comp have better consistent quality or something, just wondering really.

supersonic

Because DT have a brand name on you recognise ;-). You pay a bit more for that.