Brake trouble - any advice?

jimmy_ledge

My first post, so let me start by saying hello! A friend recommended I pop a thread up on here as the advice and help can be awesome, so here goes!

I have a Specialized Rockhopper Comp 2009 model which comes with Avid Juicy 4 RSL (limited edition juicy's for Specialized range or so I hear) which are pretty much Avid Juicy 3's just re-badged. These were great brakes, great firm pressured on the lever and stopped really well in all conditions up Gisburn Forest and my commute to work on the canal. However after a while, one of the pistons started sticking and only one pad was being pushed out. I'm quite confident with a toolbox so got the piston kit and seals ordered in. Rebuilt the calipers and my problems started. Despite using the official Avid bleed kit and a copy kit from eBay, I could not for the life in me get a good re-bleed done. I followed a few avid video's on YouTube but could never seem to get the lever firm, it always felt quite spongy and often came too close back to the bar than ever before, even with the lever adjust right out.

Now I really like a firm lever and don't feel comfortable when the lever comes close back to the bar. Anyway, after about 3 or 4 attempts I had enough and decided to have one last go and do a full flush of the hose and re-bleed. Unfortunately this was a regret as whilst on the stand outside, I got called in to work (on-call for A&E) so I had to shoot off quickly, only to return to find my little lad (3 year old) had nabbed my lines and had squirted water down the hoses with his water pistol. Oh my god I could have killed the little monkey! I did try and leave them to dry out, but on re-bleeding them you could still see all the water in the fluid. So moving on I used this opportunity to upgrade the brakes. CRC were doing a special offer on Avid Elixir 5 set with rotors, so I snapped some up!

Fitting the Elixirs was a doddle, as were the new G3 rotors that came with them. The bleed on these from the factory was very nice and firm however the hose length was well, taking the piss abit! Anyway, I started to use the bike to work and back and the pads were getting nicely bedded in. After about a week, whenever I pulled the front lever, the brake would initially bite, but then the front end would start to judder, feeling like it was coming from the brakes. This seemed to happen on every journey so decided to sort it out. At first I checked and eventually replaced the pads, got the front wheel re-trued although it didn't really need doing to be honest, I ended up buying a new set of G3 rotors to replace the ones that came with the elixirs and still I couldn't shift this awful juddering ...

I decided to let my LBS have a look, and whilst they were at it, shorten the hoses and re-bleed the brakes for me. They couldn't figure out why the brakes were juddering but suggested to see how it went with the re-bleed to ensure it wasn't the brakes pulsating. Well that was a mistake as the re-bleed they did was crap and they got it no where near as firm as I'd like, so again the sad face returned ... The juddering had not gone away. I decided to check the pistons and pads area to make sure nothing was stuck inside or anything like that, all looked clear to me, and then I eventually needed so ordered some new tyres and tubes. I tried putting my older G2 rotors on but still the same results ... Nothing at all would shift this awful juddering.

Anyway, I've taken the Elixir 5's off, and have put on some old Juicy 3's I had lying around from my old Kona for the time being so I can still commute to work, however I have bled these 3 times now and can't get the lever firm? :?

I know it's a bit of a long shot, but can anyone

a) tell me why or what they think would cause the juddering despite all of my attempts at changing things?
b) give me any advice to try firm up the bleed on the juicy's despite using the official kit and following the official video?

Sorry for the long-winded rant/moan, hopefully wont get any TL-DR posts but hey

Thanks
Jimmy

austy

I too have a Specialized Rockhopper with the Juicy 3's.

I had the same problem as yourself with juddering of the brakes and also some god awful noises.

Turned out I had overtightened the mounting bolts for the calipers and crushed the aluminium CPS washers causing them to snap. When I heard the clunk my hearth sank thinking it was the threads in the fork.

Got some brand new bolts and fitted them without over tightening them and everything is hunky dory now.

Moral of the story is it doesn't have to be ham fisted tight.

With regard to bleeding I had a really spongy brake lever. I made sure that I followed the you tubes/instruction manual too a tee and took loads of time over the de gassing of the fluid (creating a vacuum to pull the air out of the fluid) Also make sure when you are bleeding the caliper to have the brake lever pulled in to isolate the caliper and a few pull on the syringe I was surprised I still got air out even though I had pushed fluid through at this point. So do the vacuum thing when the syringe is on the caliper and lever too and push a bit mroe fluid back in you've done this.

Hope this helps.

Grant

Anonymous

Spongy brakes are a natural part of Juicys for a start. They'll start out okay when brand new, but after that, no matter what you do to adjust and bleed, they're squishy. Previous bleed they worked okay for a bit and had some bite, but the last bleed which I did by the book and certainly got it to the point of no more air bubbles coming out, the things are squishy as hell and levers go almost to the bars.

Rubbish brakes and most customer reviews say the same.

Tempted however by some of the deals on X9 and X0 brakes, but then these are still Avid/SRAM stuff really, basically Elixirs. Got X0 on new bike which just came with them and they're fine generally, but new brakes. Get a bit of a resin-ish buzz kind of sound on the front breaking at speed for a while. Had this before on other brakes. Yet to change the pads but I'm guessing there are organic pads in there with the new set.

Probably wouldn't have been my choice if I could choose, but they seem okay and the deals about make me think of getting similar for my hard tail build in part because I'd have the same pads so can just build a stock of them.

Seem to get far less hassle with alignment and disc pinging issues with the X0 also. They Juicys drove me nuts with this.

Oh, and crushed the calliper washers also once, and that was using a torque wrench to spec. I think they'd got brittle with age or something. Easy enough to get replacement pack though.

jimmy_ledge

I've thought about ditching Avid all together and trying something else, maybe Shimano 445's?

I'll check the Elixir's tomorrow in the shed to make sure they havent cracked or anything

The Rookie

I've found the best way to bleed our Avid's is this....
1/ Do a Bleed by the book - leave the syringes on
2/Leave the bike to stand for a while then each syringe in turn PULL the syringe plunger out, this creates a depression and means any air bubbles expand and are more likely to come out, you only really need to worry about this at the calliper end.
3/ Juicy's don't always leave the pads out, this results in soggy 'poor bleed' feel as the first part of the lever action just moves the pad back into contact with the disc (You can see if you have this as you can watch the pad move when you first pull the lever), wind out the travel adjust a bit until this settles then adjust back, also elastic band the levers tight back to the bars over night for a few nights, it will sort eventually!

Simon

benpinnick

With Elixirs and Juicys you can get them good, but its hard to do. on the Juicys, try taping your discs together and use those instead of the bleed blocks avid supply. I found this allows you to get a sharper lever pull as long as when you set the brakes up they're tight on the double disc.

IMHO opinion though, 2012 Deore brakes will probably blow the avids out of the water.

jimmy_ledge

The Beginner wrote:

I've found the best way to bleed our Avid's is this....
1/ Do a Bleed by the book - leave the syringes on
2/Leave the bike to stand for a while then each syringe in turn PULL the syringe plunger out, this creates a depression and means any air bubbles expand and are more likely to come out, you only really need to worry about this at the calliper end.
3/ Juicy's don't always leave the pads out, this results in soggy 'poor bleed' feel as the first part of the lever action just moves the pad back into contact with the disc (You can see if you have this as you can watch the pad move when you first pull the lever), wind out the travel adjust a bit until this settles then adjust back, also elastic band the levers tight back to the bars over night for a few nights, it will sort eventually!

Simon

Thanks Simon, certainly sounds like you've been in my position before. I have tried varying whether I leave the pads in against the disc and the red bleed block, but still i find the same results in the end.

I haven't tried doing a normal bleed then leaving the syringes on for a while and re-doing the calliper bleed though, so I may give that a try. Nor have I left the levers tight back to the bars with elastic bands over night. Do you re-bleed the calliper/hose straight after take the bands off?

Appreciate your time and responses so far fellas!

Ben - which of the Deore range you specifically talking about?

benpinnick

The 596: £50 + discs (@10 each from Superstar - you wont be able to reuse the Avid ones) + a front 180 adaptor (@5) So £125 all in, and sell the Avids for £40 on the fleabay.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=67246

jimmy_ledge

Thanks for that. Why would I need 180 over 160 rotos? Can't I just buy them with some Shimano 160 rotors, then I don't need to get extra 160 to 180 adaptors?

The Rookie

What Ben refers to in the 07:09am post is the issue with the pads staying on the disc, I had this with my Juicys, bleeding it with the disc between the pads does help this, but then the system ends up overfilled and you have to dump fluid when you fit new pads.
You don't (shouldn't if using the piston spacer as I do) rebleed after leaving with the bands on overnight as you just end up pushing the pistons back again!
I suspect its not a Bleed isue you have but the pistons not staying out, tweaking the reach and leaving with bands on and NOT fiddling with it as each time you do you risk the pistons going back and you starting all over! Once the pads settle on the disc they stay there.

Simon

benpinnick

jimmy_ledge wrote:

Thanks for that. Why would I need 180 over 160 rotos? Can't I just buy them with some Shimano 160 rotors, then I don't need to get extra 160 to 180 adaptors?

You don't need the 180s over 160s, but you'll find a 180 works better on the front. Since you'd need the rotors anyway, then why not get the ones you want. Only £5 for the adaptor, so not a huge difference?

benpinnick

The Beginner wrote:

What Ben refers to in the 07:09am post is the issue with the pads staying on the disc, I had this with my Juicys, bleeding it with the disc between the pads does help this, but then the system ends up overfilled and you have to dump fluid when you fit new pads.
You don't (shouldn't if using the piston spacer as I do) rebleed after leaving with the bands on overnight as you just end up pushing the pistons back again!
I suspect its not a Bleed isue you have but the pistons not staying out, tweaking the reach and leaving with bands on and NOT fiddling with it as each time you do you risk the pistons going back and you starting all over! Once the pads settle on the disc they stay there.

Simon

Simon, thats why I would add in two discs when doing the bleed.

Anonymous

Extra annoyance of the Juicy 3s is the only adjustment is reach. Aside from that I always found during use the pads never reset to the exact same position. Apply the brakes, let go and the pads can be fractionally in a different place to the last time they were applied, and same every time. Result is no consistency and sometimes the pads will rub, sometimes not.

jimmy_ledge

deadkenny wrote:

Extra annoyance of the Juicy 3s is the only adjustment is reach. Aside from that I always found during use the pads never reset to the exact same position. Apply the brakes, let go and the pads can be fractionally in a different place to the last time they were applied, and same every time. Result is no consistency and sometimes the pads will rub, sometimes not.

Amen to that, glad I'm not the only one that thinks that, especially when they boast so much about their tri-align system.

I am tempted just to grab some Shimanos, but its £100 down the drain if I dont like the feel of the lever and I need to bleed them etc.

The Rookie

Just try the advice given, now you have a bleed kit it's free to try and I'll think you'll notice a big improvement, after a few days riding I had to readjust my reach back as they were too sharp, most issues I think come from people keep messing and noever allowing them to settle, also be careful when aligning the calliper, I have to do the bolts up a bit at a time or the calliper twists due to the torque created by friction under the head bolts.

Simon