Need more toe-out. Speedplay Zero with long spindles?

ai_1

Hi,

I'm currently using a set of Shimano SPD SL R540 pedals with the standard (float) cleats. These are my first set of clipless pedals which I've only been using for about 6 months. However, I've been having some knee trouble and the root of it seems to be that I need more toe out than available on one foot. I've got pretty wide feet (using Shimano R087 in size 43 Wide but these are still a bit tight) and as it is I've got the cleat set up to place the foot as far out as possible on the pedal with a few degrees of toe out. Any more angle on the shoe causes my heel to hit the crank as it passes horizontal.

So, my plan is to buy a set of Speedplay zero pedals with longer than standard spindles.
The Speedplay zeros allow up to 15 degrees of float and I'm hoping the longer spindles should give me enough clearance to avoid my shoe hitting the crank.
From what I can see Speedplay do their stainless spindles in 50mm, 53mm, 56mm, 59mm & 65mm with 53mm being the standard length. The distance from crank face to pedal centre on my R540 pedals is about 53mm so I'm assuming this puts the shoe in pretty much the same place relative to the crank as a Speedplay Zero with a 53mm spindle. Is this correct? Based on that assumption I reckon I should go for the 59mm spindle length to give me a couple of degrees more foot rotation and allow just enough clearance when wearing shoe covers.

What do you think? Am I approaching this the right way and looking at the best solution?

Thanks for any feedback!


P.S.
If you can point me in the direction of a good price online or somewhere in Ireland that does Speedplay fitting, that would also be useful.

cookiemonster

Hi

Generally your feet (and toes) should be facing forward all the way through the pedal stroke, so that the forces are running in a straight line through your knee. If your toes are pointed out and heels in, then you'll be pushing through your knee at an angle and putting a fair amount of strain on the joint. Clearly I dont know you or your specific situation which may be different to the norm, but rather than insufficient toe out being the cause of the issue, you may find that your need for toe out is actually a symptom

It may be best to go have a chat with a physio before you spend more money on hardware - especially to check whether you have tight ITB's (down the side of the thigh) or piriformis (deep inside your butt muscle). If either of these tighten up, which is very common in cyclists and runners, then a usual result is to pivot the foot outwards, so you stand, walk and cycle slightly duck like. You then put sideways pressure on your knees as above, and the next stop is knee pain central!

jon

ai_1

Hi Jon,

Thanks for that. I've consulted a physio who suggested that I should ensure I've enough angular movement available for the foot. I had previously (before seeing the physio) reduced the toe out thinking this may be the cause of the problem but that made it considerably worse. I do have a little tightness in the ITB which I'm working on but I'm assured that's not the primary problem.

cookiemonster

Hi

Interesting; I cant quite understand what circumstances would lead to a greater foot angle being better for your knee, but I guess we're all made a bit differently!

Standard speedplays may give you what you want as i think (better check this though) they have more lateral adjustment than spd-sl's so you can push your shoe out to the edge of the pedals. Also the free float makes it easier for your foot to sit at angle to the pedal than with the spring-loaded float of the spd-sl's

Another thing to look at might be to stick in some wedges - maybe of the Specialized BG variety, which are pretty cheap. They can give some stability to your foot and you may then find you dont need so much toe out.

Good luck anyhow!

jon

Rojales

Hi,
I have the same problem with my heals cliping the crank and frame, Ive tried to keep my foot more in line with the float on the cleats only to suffer with knee pain, so ive placed a 1mm washer between pedal and crank, use red keo cleats which i file the holes a little to move my foot outwards, for my heals to move inwards. You could also try Keo Max pedals which have longer spindal.

ai_1

Happy new year guys.

Well I ended up getting myself some Speedplay Zero pedals with 59mm spindles. It took a while to get these as it's not the default length (default is typically 53mm). I've only had them a few days and done a couple of cycles but I'm pleased so far. My knees feel better than usual after the first few cycles. I find the pedals more comfortable in use than the SPD-SL pedals mostly due to the low friction float, I think.
They are worse for walking which I expected and so far I find them slower to clip in but maybe that's more to do with practice than design.

sungod

get the 'coffee shop' cleat covers, it's crazy that speedplay don't include a set with the pedals

they make walking much safer, and reduce wear on the base

http://www.probikekit.com/uk/speedplay- ... -caps.html

crankycrank

sungod wrote:

get the 'coffee shop' cleat covers, it's crazy that speedplay don't include a set with the pedals

they make walking much safer, and reduce wear on the base

http://www.probikekit.com/uk/speedplay- ... -caps.html

+1 on the coffee shop covers. I think reducing wear on the cleat is just a bonus with using these covers. As you may have already experienced they can be like walking on ice on smooth floors and any time you go indoors and encounter a soft vinyl or wood floor they can leave dents in the surface. Friends and shop owners will not be pleased when they see you comming around with your bike :shock: . Also use them when walking on grass, mud, dirt, etc., as the cleats can get fouled up easily.

Secteur

cookiemonster wrote:

Interesting; I cant quite understand what circumstances would lead to a greater foot angle being better for your knee

Actually it's very common.

When I went clipless I set up with my feet pointing directly straight forwards & it took me weeks to realise that this was why I was getting terrible+++ right sided ITB Syndrome.

After much physio, rollers and stretching, I tried adjusting my cleats to increase my toe-out on my right foot, and the ITB immediately was cured.

Most people are slightly off centre in this respect, but it's by such a small degree that it doesnt matter. A smaller (but significant) number have anatomical variation at the hip and knee meaning that slight toe-out is neccessary. It's not uncommon.

Sometimes, lower limb fracture or other injury can lead to anatomical abnormality and the need for changed cleat posiiton (see David Millar, for example, and I imaging any cyclist who has fractured a hip for example, like Vinokourov / Leipheimer)

neeb

I have something similar - it's not that I need to have the toe out as such, just that I need to prevent my heel drifting out, which strains a ligament or tendon on the inside edge of my patella. I just use standard length axles on speedplays but dial out the float so that my heel is always near the chainstays.

ai_1

I've been using the Speedplays since late December and have put in about a dozen cycles at this point. Happily my knees do seem to appreciate the change. I've had no real difficulties switching from Shimano SPD-SL to Speedplay Zero. They feel different but not difficult to use. I'd read numerous comments that some people find the low friction float makes the pedals feel like you're "skating on ice" but I haven't found this a problem despite allowing a lot of float right from the start.
However, the cleats really are a pain to walk in. I've got coffee shop covers in the post but having to carry around soles for your shoes is still going to be inconvenient. Worth it for the cycling comfort though.

lef

having feet pointing forward may be the most efficient position for many, but everyone is different. As per some other comments suggest, forcing yourself into tracking the knees and feet straight is a recipe for disaster if thats not how your body functions. I'm no physio but i've done lots of research on it due to my own search for pain free riding. Toe out solved my knee pain.

As for longer spindles, yes thats an (expensive) option but you could try a couple of pedal washers to each crank first to give a little more clearance...two is deemed safe, no more. I'm a size 43 wide and have speedplay cleats set with maximum toe out. By positioning the cleats so the shoe is pushed further outboard I have no issue with contacting the pedal crank or seat stays, and no spacers needed. Are you moving the cleat inwards to push the shoe further away from the crank?

Bikefittingtools sell the spacers. Theres also pedal extenders, but they may push the foot to far outboard, they did for me.

Also look into wedging the cleats varus v. valgus etc, could be part of the problem especially if you have significant toe out. Check out the steve hogg website for wedging.

brettjmcc

Get a bike fit with someone who knows what length spindle you will need and the buy the spindles... as they are nearly as expensive again as the pedals...

Buy the Cro-Mo Zedros and then surf the web... there is a guy in the US who will do you Ti spindles to your length for circa $60 or so...

racingcondor

+1 re Lef.

The correct foot position is whatever it takes to get your knee tracking straight (after your saddle is in the right position). For me this involves a small amount of toe out on the right foot and a lot on the left.

Given how bad yours is I'd get a bike fit. The natrual rotation of your foot can change as your arch collapses so properly fitting shoes with good insoles (with or without vargus wedges) could also be a factor if your arches are weak.

It's a very complex area though so I wouldn't just use the web for advice.

ai_1

Hi guys,

I've already got the Speedplay pedals with the 59mm spindles.
With the cleats central on the shoe this gives just enough clearance on my left foot while wearing overshoes. Like racingcondor I need a little toe out on the right foot and a little more on the left. Neither is terribly dramatic but in combination with wide feet and a pre-existing knee issue the longer spindles were necessary to allow sufficent float for comfort.

I'd be interested to hear the basis of suggestions that your feet should be straight on the pedals. I've never seen any credible authorative material suggesting this. My understanding is that once your posture is correct in terms of relative alignment of spine, pelvis and joints then the resulting geometry of the body should be accomodated by the equipment not the other way around. All our bodies have slightly different geometry and are asymmetrical whether you've noticed or not. Training your body to fit a geometric model which is really just an average of all bodies and not representative of any actual person makes no sense. If I cycled with my feet pointing straight ahead and with no float, I'd be very uncomfortable or even in severe pain but more importantly if I ignored the signs and kept going I'd probably end up causing significant damage. This has always been my understanding and it's also the advice of my physio.

I haven't done a bike fit but I probably will in the near future.
If I'm comfortable then I'm pretty sure I'm doing no damage and that's my main concern for now. Getting my optimum setup is a different matter!
I'm considering a new bike this summer. proabably a Canyon Ultimate CF and if I go that route I'll certainly get a bike fit first to ensure I'm going for the right size and configuration.

Aidan

marin_maniac

I'm getting fitted for Speedplay Zero's in February due to knee pain that I havent been able to shift for a year. I was wondering if anyone that has got the Zero's if when they fitted them they had knee pain and if they cured it and how quick?

ai_1

Hi,

Yes as mentioned earlier in the thread I've got some knee pain that seemed to be agrovated by cycling (originally caused by running not cycling). The physio reckoned the agrovation was due to restricted foot movement which was what I'd already suspected. I had SPD-SL pedals with float but not enough. That's why I got the zeros. I've definitely felt a significant improvement since I switched.

neeb

Just an obvious point that perhaps needs to be made in relation to the last two posts - there are lots of different types of knee pain with different causes, and what is good for one type may be bad for another. Some people may need more foot movement, others may need movement to be restricted or confined to a particular angle.

il_principe

Zeros sorted my knee pain. My feet like to "Turn out" naturally - i'e if I sit with my feet off the floor. Speedplay worked for me as they let my feet find their most comfy position on the pedal without resistance. Had them fitted at Cyclefit along with some custom footbeds. A Retul fit has also sorted my knee so it tracks up and down without any rotation - i.e from this: http://twitpic.com/89hqu8 to this http://twitpic.com/89hqh8. So it's efficient and I don't suffer from any knee pain.

ai_1

neeb wrote:

Just an obvious point that perhaps needs to be made in relation to the last two posts - there are lots of different types of knee pain with different causes, and what is good for one type may be bad for another. Some people may need more foot movement, others may need movement to be restricted or confined to a particular angle.

Absolutely agree. I should have mentioned that in my post above.

marin_maniac

Il Principe wrote:

Zeros sorted my knee pain. My feet like to "Turn out" naturally - i'e if I sit with my feet off the floor. Speedplay worked for me as they let my feet find their most comfy position on the pedal without resistance. Had them fitted at Cyclefit along with some custom footbeds. A Retul fit has also sorted my knee so it tracks up and down without any rotation - i.e from this: http://twitpic.com/89hqu8 to this http://twitpic.com/89hqh8. So it's efficient and I don't suffer from any knee pain.

Ai_1 wrote:

Hi,

Yes as mentioned earlier in the thread I've got some knee pain that seemed to be agrovated by cycling (originally caused by running not cycling). The physio reckoned the agrovation was due to restricted foot movement which was what I'd already suspected. I had SPD-SL pedals with float but not enough. That's why I got the zeros. I've definitely felt a significant improvement since I switched.

Thanks for your replies.

Just out of interest, what sort of knee pain did you have i.e. what part of your knee was painful?

Bordersroadie

lef wrote:

having feet pointing forward may be the most efficient position for many, but everyone is different. As per some other comments suggest, forcing yourself into tracking the knees and feet straight is a recipe for disaster if thats not how your body functions. I'm no physio but i've done lots of research on it due to my own search for pain free riding. Toe out solved my knee pain.

Me too. I have toe-out to match my natural feet/ankle/knee set up. I'm using (shock horror) MTB SPDs with rigid shoes on my winter bike/summer bike/MTB. I moved the cleats to the outside position and then filed the parallel shoe slots to allow the cleat to be twisted so that my heels point in until they're almost touching the cranks. Works for my legs and has solved an old knee injury that bugged me for over 10 years.

Note also I moved the cleats back to 1cm behind the centre of the ball of my foot which made a massive positive difference to knee issues and calf ache. My riding aims are long distance Sportives and commuting. Hope that helps.