EU REFERENDUM

tim_wand

What is this Government we didnt elect doing?

I Know any crazy can get on to E petitions, but isnt that the point of a democracy and the the very thing that makes this a better place to live than say Syria.

But how can the House of Commons (Thats you and me, their meant to represent) be pressured to not vote on an EU referendum by a three party whip, when over 100,000 of the electorate have asked them to do so.

Who are they representing. Or are they just protecting their all expenses paid trips to Brussels for the cyclocross season and Spring Classics.

ddraver

UK population - 61,838,154 (World Bank, World Development Indicators, 2009)
Votes for a referendum - 100, 000

=0.0016% of population in favour of a referendum, 99.9984% opposed

Welcome to democracy!

tim_wand

99.9 % opposed? I dont think every one was canvassed having a referendum would allow that and I m fairly confident not even 51% of the electorate would choose to remain in the EU.

Must be around 100,000 Cornish folk who if given the chance would like an Independent state of Kernow, that makes no economic sense. Withdrawal from the EU is looking as it may well do. Germany cant bail everyone out.

I would wager that the majority of population growth giving the figures you quoted is down to economic migrants from EU member states.

But then that just makes me a xenophobic right wing fascist and I dont deserve a democratic voice.

ziggycycledust

Probably because most MP's and certainly the cabinet members are far more educated on the topic than the vast majority of the public and have far more accurate information on the demerits and merits of leaving the EU.

Im not sure i would want the UK population to decide on whether or not we should leave the EU purely based upon Nigel Farage's bombastic and hyperbolic claims. I would much rather the government made that decision based on a far more strenuous cost benefit analysis.

When i vote, i vote for an MP for 2 reasons.

1. Will he represent my views on LOCAL issues
2. Whether he will vote in Parliament for the best interest of the whole country

Lots of debate to be had here... but at the end of the day i study history at university, not European economics, therefore the government and their strong list of advisors are probably going to know far more than what i can glean from the Times and the odd article in the economist about whats happening!

Call me cynical (especially at 20!) but I'm not really that bothered about which of the main 3 parties gets in to power as they are (mostly) well educated people, and whilst their policies differ they are all acting for the benefit of the nation. This of course does not stop me from voting.

No doubt my view will change as i leave uni and get a job, start paying taxes etc. But at the moment I'm not too fussed. And for all those people who moan about our government, try watching the US Republican primary debates, and that will make you realise how lucky you are! Im glad that in the UK the issues of whether abortion should be illegal, whether you should be allowed to carry an automatic weapon or whether your are a mormon don't dominate our politics!

ooermissus

tim wand wrote:

I Know any crazy can get on to E petitions, but isnt that the point of a democracy and the the very thing that makes this a better place to live than say Syria.

But how can the House of Commons (Thats you and me, their meant to represent) be pressured to not vote on an EU referendum by a three party whip, when over 100,000 of the electorate have asked them to do so.

Who are they representing. Or are they just protecting their all expenses paid trips to Brussels for the cyclocross season and Spring Classics.

Is it fair to suspect that Brussels may be to blame for growing scarcity of questions marks.

ddraver

So because of those 100,000 Cornishmen (long may they prosper), should the nation have a referendum on Cornish independence?

Even if we add an order of magnitude to the petition, that's still less than 1% of the GB population that are prepared to put their name to having a referendum on Europe

tim_wand

ooermissus got me there on grammatical correctness appreciate that a question should be finished with a question mark.

I d like to believe that Ziggycyclesdusts view that politicians are far better educated and informed on this issue than us is valid and that they are acting in our best interests

Surely though they are elected to represent our views and concerns even if that includes the vast majority of Daily Mail reading zealots.

I m not content to live in a nanny state where David Knows best and think this is an issue the powers of be have long run scared of public opinion on.

Could someone better educated and informed than myself let us know what the benefits of EU membership are?

ddraver

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=benefits+of+UK+staying+in+europe

BigG67

ziggycycledust wrote:

Probably because most MP's and certainly the cabinet members are far more educated on the topic than the vast majority of the public and have far more accurate information on the demerits and merits of leaving the EU.

Im not sure i would want the UK population to decide on whether or not we should leave the EU purely based upon Nigel Farage's bombastic and hyperbolic claims. I would much rather the government made that decision based on a far more strenuous cost benefit analysis.

When i vote, i vote for an MP for 2 reasons.

1. Will he represent my views on LOCAL issues
2. Whether he will vote in Parliament for the best interest of the whole country

Lots of debate to be had here... but at the end of the day i study history at university, not European economics, therefore the government and their strong list of advisors are probably going to know far more than what i can glean from the Times and the odd article in the economist about whats happening!

Call me cynical (especially at 20!) but I'm not really that bothered about which of the main 3 parties gets in to power as they are (mostly) well educated people, and whilst their policies differ they are all acting for the benefit of the nation. This of course does not stop me from voting.

No doubt my view will change as i leave uni and get a job, start paying taxes etc. But at the moment I'm not too fussed. And for all those people who moan about our government, try watching the US Republican primary debates, and that will make you realise how lucky you are! Im glad that in the UK the issues of whether abortion should be illegal, whether you should be allowed to carry an automatic weapon or whether your are a mormon don't dominate our politics!

+1

we don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic and elect those to make decisions on our behalf. Otherwise we'd vote on everything, if EU then why not defence spending, NHS, trade policy etc etc. Now THAT would be a road to disaster.

verylonglegs

tim wand wrote:

ooermissus got me there on grammatical correctness appreciate that a question should be finished with a question mark.

I d like to believe that Ziggycyclesdusts view that politicians are far better educated and informed on this issue than us is valid and that they are acting in our best interests

Surely though they are elected to represent our views and concerns even if that includes the vast majority of Daily Mail reading zealots.

I m not content to live in a nanny state where David Knows best and think this is an issue the powers of be have long run scared of public opinion on.

Could someone better educated and informed than myself let us know what the benefits of EU membership are?

I understand your point, really I do, but as said by others I'm a little concerned about policy on vital subjects being determined by uneducated folk. And it's not as you say the Dail Mail readers that bothers me...it's the Sun readers and their ilk, it makes me shudder to imagine people who read that sh1te having a say on how we do anything.

SmellTheGlove

Note to MPs tempted to vote for a referendum:

We've had a referendum on EU membership; it was in 1973. Why not try to define your lives by something original?

tim_wand

Although I share concerns that the average sun reading , Jeremy Kyle watching idiot should not be able to determine politics this view does rely on a certain amount of arrogance that I / We know best.

Surely we all adopt political views which best support our own position or aspirations and a democracy affords everyone that right.

Half the argument for accepting a coalition government that we didn't vote for was that it was better to allow politicians to get on with the business of politics and trying to sort the mess we are in than debating the correct democratic process.

(Defeating my own argument here)

I just feel that sometimes the illumination never happened and that the power that be are still trying to repress the serfs by denying us access to education/ learning, Maybe this isnt happening in physical terms but the philosophy and tactics seem the same.

It suits the political powers that be that we have a social underclass that just prescribes to whatever the media tells them to.

estampida

well living in scotland its not just the uk wide referendum that will f u c k up my life

but the whip thing is mental,

600 oxbridge graduates and they get told what to think, and for £80,000 + expenses........


where is my gun.................

Wirral_paul

ddraver wrote:

UK population - 61,838,154 (World Bank, World Development Indicators, 2009)
Votes for a referendum - 100, 000

=0.0016% of population in favour of a referendum, 99.9984% opposed

Welcome to democracy!

Welcome to rubbish maths!! By your own figures, the answer is 0.164%

Sorry - couldnt resist

shouldbeinbed

ddraver wrote:

99.9984% opposed

Bit of a leap there. They're not an opt in / out compulsory exercise y'know. For a start there's aporox 9 million who've never logged on, IIRC you have to be of voting age to propose or vote on these questions (could be wrong) there's a number of people who won't give their details to 'the man' and plenty of us who aren't bothered sufficiently to go through the rigmarole of it all & don't go through them all agreeing or opposing by withholding our vote.

If only we could have some sort of national vote on whether we should have a referendum

shouldbeinbed

SmellTheGlove wrote:

Note to MPs tempted to vote for a referendum:

We've had a referendum on EU membership; it was in 1973. Why not try to define your lives by something original?

Pedantically, anyone who was 18 or over in 1973 have had a referendum, anyone younger than 55/56 now hasn't.

That excludes many MPs, so technically they are going for something original to them, and 'define their lives by'???? No hyperbole there then.

daviesee

ziggycycledust wrote:

When i vote, i vote for an MP for 2 reasons.

1. Will he represent my views on LOCAL issues
2. Whether he will vote in Parliament for the best interest of the whole country

That sounds like a lot of sense but unfortunately it is not reality.

This Country is run by party politics so your MP will vote for what's best for the party. If it suits the Country or his/her constituency then it is sheer coincidence :evil:

verylonglegs

tim wand wrote:

Although I share concerns that the average sun reading , Jeremy Kyle watching idiot should not be able to determine politics this view does rely on a certain amount of arrogance that I / We know best.

Surely we all adopt political views which best support our own position or aspirations and a democracy affords everyone that right.

Half the argument for accepting a coalition government that we didn't vote for was that it was better to allow politicians to get on with the business of politics and trying to sort the mess we are in than debating the correct democratic process.

(Defeating my own argument here)

I just feel that sometimes the illumination never happened and that the power that be are still trying to repress the serfs by denying us access to education/ learning, Maybe this isnt happening in physical terms but the philosophy and tactics seem the same.

It suits the political powers that be that we have a social underclass that just prescribes to whatever the media tells them to.

I’m not convinced on the argument of the repression of an education for the serfs as you call them, they have made a choice as far as I can tell and prefer the x-factor to actually reading a book and learning. The information is available to anyone who really wants it, they just aren’t that interested as long as the tv works and there is food in the cupboard.

ddraver

Whatever the numbers (this is why geologists should nt do maths), it is still a tiny proportion of the population that can be bothered to ask for a referendum (which is the only reason this debate is occouring/occured). Let's not forget that 5 times more people voted for the BNP so they could easily get 100, 000 signatures on a petiton? Should we therefore have a referendum on whether or not all the Blacks, Asians and Jews should be deported?

Unless you voted BNP or UKIP or Tory, none of the other parties said anything about a referendum on Europe, If you voted Tory, it was only "when the time is right" which was pretty clearly politicanspeak for never!

rick_chasey

The issue for Cameron is interesting - since he's clearly a Eurosceptic - and has created the most euro-sceptic cabinet that I can remember. He even campaigned on a Euro referendum.

Hague, (who I'm a fan of, though cannot stand his politics one bit) had it right when he said it was the wrong question at the wrong time.

Europe has always had the Tories foaming at the mouth. It's become an obsession for many of the backbenchers, and, for some, is THE issue that brings them to the party (rather like electoral reform and the Lib Dems). Unfortunately for them, though the public has opinions on Europe (no doubt a little more crystallised as a result of this debate), it's not a particularly pressing issue for the majority of people. People want jobs and to feel optimistic about the way things are going. Whether the UK is part of the European debate, (and it's still insulated from the worst problems France and Germany have to deal with), either this week or next week isn't the biggest problem right now.

rick_chasey

With regard to the OP - all a petition does is get the subject raised in parliament.

The MPs then decide on the subject, regardless of the opinion of the petition.

For example, Petition comes in to re-instate capital punishment, MPs consider, debate, vote, and chose to throw it out. Job done.

Still not happy? Vote for an MP who was pro-whatever your cause is next election.

Or become a lobbyist, obviously.