Motorcycles in cycle lanes and ASL

bikeboon

Any remedy against those guys? Once in a blue moon I see coppers stopping and marking them in Lower Thames Street, more often than not they just seem to turn a blind eye.

Is there a secret number to call to get police out marking those guys?

Having congratulated a few motorcyclists sitting in the ASL on their choice of their pushbike I figured not a lot of them speak English...

Had a situation recently. A motorbike 10 yards ahead of me in the cycle lane, the rest of the traffic is stationary. A pedestrian crosses the street without looking. The motorcyclist slams his brakes. I slam mine, but his tyres are thicker and brakes are crisper. Almost parked in the back of his bike. A thought crosses my mind. If a cyclist were to crash into a motorcyclist in a cycle lane, would the motorcyclist get away for riding in the cycle lane?

Headhuunter

This is 1 of my real pet hates!

I almost slammed into a bloody moped rider trying to filter from traffic into the cycle lane on Blackfriars Bridge northbound. I slammed the brakes on and swerved round him telling him to watch out... He had the temerity to tell me to calm down, having almost caused an accident. If an ASL is blocked by mopeds etc, I make the point of pulling up in front of them.

Also, I have to say, since motorbikes and mopeds have been allowed in bus lanes, I feel far more at risk. Some of them fly up bus lanes at 40-50mph alongside queuing traffic, narrowly missing cyclists...

bromyG

The police were out again this morning in Lower Thames Street stopping motorcyclists in the cycle lane.

Nearly ran into the back of one though who stopped suddenly having spotted them in the distance!

It does get very bad down there during the rush hours.

kurako

If you ride into the back of something the general view is that you were riding too close and therefore it's your fault. Whether or not the other party did something against the rules to get in that position is besides the point. I'd be quite wary of running into the back of a m/bike. The weight differential would mean you'll be the one coming off worst.

keyser__soze

Kurako wrote:

If you ride into the back of something the general view is that you were riding too close and therefore it's your fault.

This does not apply when changing lanes. If someone sideswipes you, pulls into your lane or turns across you then it's their fault. When demarked with either a dashed or solid line the cycle lane is for all intents and purposes a separate lane.

Headhuunter

Actually I saw a police motorcyclist and a another motorcyclist pulled over (in the cycle lane!) on Blackfriars Bridge, perhaps the police are finally doing something about this...

mroli

and yesterday police were pulling motorbikes/scooters over on Embankment.

of course, as a motorcyclist, I know that "popular" perception with many bike riders is that riding in cycle lanes/pulling up in ASLs is fine to do - their equivalent of RLJ or riding without helmets if you will.

I was told on my motorbike training that you should never filter on the inside, only on the outside (this was for safety reasons - cars were less likely to see you on the inside, although that makes bike lanes on the LHS of the road more confusing) - cycles on the inside, powered two wheelers on the outside.

Headhuunter

mroli wrote:

and yesterday police were pulling motorbikes/scooters over on Embankment.

of course, as a motorcyclist, I know that "popular" perception with many bike riders is that riding in cycle lanes/pulling up in ASLs is fine to do - their equivalent of RLJ or riding without helmets if you will.

I was told on my motorbike training that you should never filter on the inside, only on the outside (this was for safety reasons - cars were less likely to see you on the inside, although that makes bike lanes on the LHS of the road more confusing) - cycles on the inside, powered two wheelers on the outside.

Except that cycling without a helmet is not illlegal whereas motorbiking down a cycle lane and into an ASL is

chopperHarris

wednesday morning on my daily commute a motorcyclist though it would be in his advantage to quickly hop into the cycle lane to get passed some traffic (deual carriageway right hand side was blocked due to a big truck) only problem was that he hadnt noticed the 5" curb between the road and the cycle lane so stacked it big time in front of me. Helped the fella up and made sure he was alright and got the bike back upright, couldnt help but say "did you not see that big curb mate"

as a motorcyclist and a cyclist (i have commuted via motorbike into london for the last 12+ years last 3 years on and off on the push bike) it does annoy me when a motorbike goes down a push bike lane and i have no problems telling the rider! ASL's i dont really have a major issue with, when on the motorbike I will only go into them when i have to. What does annoy me is when there is no need to go in them at all and people still go straight to the front anyway(mostly scooter riders) at the end of the day the motorbikes will always leave the lights alot quicker than a pushbike so i have no issue with them being in front of me

Headhuunter

Although to be honest, legally speaking motorcyclists are quite free to use cycle lanes if they are only "advisory", ie are marked with a dashed line. It's only when they're marked with a solid line that they are mandatory and motorcyclists should not go into them under any circumstances.

Many/most cycle lanes, including cycle super highways, across London are merely mandatory which means that it's perfectly legal for motorists, motorcyclists and moped riders to completely ignore them....

kurako

Keyser__Soze wrote:

Kurako wrote:

If you ride into the back of something the general view is that you were riding too close and therefore it's your fault.

This does not apply when changing lanes. If someone sideswipes you, pulls into your lane or turns across you then it's their fault. When demarked with either a dashed or solid line the cycle lane is for all intents and purposes a separate lane.

That's true although the OP didn't mention anything about changing lanes. I had the impression he was following and the m/bike slammed on the brakes. I prefer to ride down the middle if at all possible when filtering (although you still come across sheeple occasionally it's a lot less common).

Origamist

Kurako wrote:

Keyser__Soze wrote:

Kurako wrote:

If you ride into the back of something the general view is that you were riding too close and therefore it's your fault.

This does not apply when changing lanes. If someone sideswipes you, pulls into your lane or turns across you then it's their fault. When demarked with either a dashed or solid line the cycle lane is for all intents and purposes a separate lane.

That's true although the OP didn't mention anything about changing lanes. I had the impression he was following and the m/bike slammed on the brakes. I prefer to ride down the middle if at all possible when filtering (although you still come across sheeple occasionally it's a lot less common).

I was caught out here by a motorcyclist in an advisory cycle lane:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZYrETGzHIw

bikeboon

bromyG wrote:

The police were out again this morning in Lower Thames Street stopping motorcyclists in the cycle lane.

Nearly ran into the back of one though who stopped suddenly having spotted them in the distance!

It does get very bad down there during the rush hours.

Saw one being busted myself!

Need to brush up my astronomy - the blue moon is more often than I initially thought

kurako

Origamist wrote:

Kurako wrote:

Keyser__Soze wrote:

Kurako wrote:

If you ride into the back of something the general view is that you were riding too close and therefore it's your fault.

This does not apply when changing lanes. If someone sideswipes you, pulls into your lane or turns across you then it's their fault. When demarked with either a dashed or solid line the cycle lane is for all intents and purposes a separate lane.

That's true although the OP didn't mention anything about changing lanes. I had the impression he was following and the m/bike slammed on the brakes. I prefer to ride down the middle if at all possible when filtering (although you still come across sheeple occasionally it's a lot less common).

I was caught out here by a motorcyclist in an advisory cycle lane:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZYrETGzHIw

Ooh! That made me cringe. I see from your comment you knew you were going too fast. Reminds me of the time a few years ago I was bombing up the inside of a queue and a van decided he'd had enough and flicked the indicators and moved into a side road all in one movement. Cue me slamming into the side of the van, glancing all the way down, hitting the wing mirror and coming to a halt with the van parked on my front wheel. All very amicable. He said sorry I should have looked and I said yeah I was going too fast. The biggest thing I regret is not making the fecker give me a lift home!!!!

bikeboon

Origamist wrote:

I was caught out here by a motorcyclist in an advisory cycle lane:

The youtube comment suggests it is not illegal for motorcyclists to use the advisory cycle lane - which most of London superhighways are.

Am shocked.

Appreciate if anyone can supply any references to read on this...

bikeboon

Kurako wrote:

That's true although the OP didn't mention anything about changing lanes. I had the impression he was following and the m/bike slammed on the brakes. I prefer to ride down the middle if at all possible when filtering (although you still come across sheeple occasionally it's a lot less common).

After a few close calls in my commuting infancy I always make a conscious effort to avoid drifting or tailgating, and in this instance was quite a distance away from the bike. Even with V brakes my stopping distance from 20+mph is clearly a multiple of that of a motorbike.

Origamist

bikeboon wrote:

Origamist wrote:

I was caught out here by a motorcyclist in an advisory cycle lane:

The youtube comment suggests it is not illegal for motorcyclists to use the advisory cycle lane - which most of London superhighways are.

Am shocked.

Appreciate if anyone can supply any references to read on this...

Mayoral questions, Sept 2010

Jenny Jones

Is there a way to expand the education about the rights of cyclists referred to in your answer to my question 2182/2010 beyond taxi drivers to all vehicle users? This follows feedback from constituents using the Cycle Superhighway and Cycle Hire schemes, where they have experienced dangerous and disrespectful driving, and motorists driving or parking in cycle lanes.

Answer from the Mayor

I would encourage all drivers to be considerate and try to find alternative places to park and to respect the cyclist’s right to use the lanes whilst driving.

There are two types of cycle lanes across London. As a general rule cycle lanes with a solid white line are mandatory and therefore enforceable. Cycle lanes with a broken white line are only advisory and not enforceable. The majority of cycle lanes across London are advisory due to the limited road space. This means that drivers who park or drive in advisory cycle lanes are entitled to do so without any enforcement.

Also, keep an eye on this FOI request: http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/c ... superhighw

kurako

bikeboon wrote:

Kurako wrote:

That's true although the OP didn't mention anything about changing lanes. I had the impression he was following and the m/bike slammed on the brakes. I prefer to ride down the middle if at all possible when filtering (although you still come across sheeple occasionally it's a lot less common).

After a few close calls in my commuting infancy I always make a conscious effort to avoid drifting or tailgating, and in this instance was quite a distance away from the bike. Even with V brakes my stopping distance from 20+mph is clearly a multiple of that of a motorbike.

Are your brakes set up ok? Even my calipers are pretty good when the bike shop set them up compared to my ham-fisted efforts. V-brakes should stop pretty sharp too. The first time I had them on the MTB after changing from old-school cantis I nearly went over the handlebars (up on front wheel skid approaching the zebra on Gap Road, Wimbledon - not sure how I ever stayed on. ha ha)

http://bicycles.stackexchange.com/quest ... s-and-cons

iwearshorts

I always stop directly in front of any motorbike that is parked in an ASL. I then take off veeeeeeery slooooooowly when the light goes green.

Very satisfying, especially when the motorbiker revs their engine to show their displeasure

bikeboon

Kurako wrote:

bikeboon wrote:

Are your brakes set up ok?
http://bicycles.stackexchange.com/quest ... s-and-cons

Well, I can easily lock both front and rear rims, the tyres however are not as grippy as on a car or a motorcycle, and always skid when it comes to hard braking, naturally. The current tyres are actually the best in terms of braking performance that I've had.

Doubt your stopping distance from 23 mph is going to be less than mine, no?

nickice

I live in Lille, France and scooters are often the scourge of my daily commute. I am really lucky as 80% of my commute is on a separate 2-lane (i.e. one lane each way)cycle path in the middle of a large boulevard and therefore completely separate from the road. You can get a bit of a fright when a scooter or motorbike zooms past you doing 30-40 miles an hour. There are signs clearly indicating that it is only for bikes but rules only seem to be suggestions in French traffic/parking culture. To be fair, they are not as annoying as pedestrians and joggers who persistently use the bike path despite the pavement running parallel about 8 metres away. Most of them don't face the direction of bike travel and listen to MP3s so they can't hear your bell. I have seen the municipal police nearby but they don't seem to deem it important enough to deal with, so fair play to the Met in that respect. I have asked people to stop using the bike path but just get a mouthful of abuse (yes that does happen outside the UK..)or a Gallic shrug. Cars also sometimes use it for parking which is just unbelievable. When I hear French people talk of solidarity I just think of these incidents! A bit off-topic but I needed to get it off my chest!

mark1964

Working in london for most of this year, I always saw bikers enter the ASL on red in breach of rule 178. Back in Bristol, I have had many 'encounters' with the motorbike fraternity who assume the ASL is their territory for an early getaway at the lights or an attempt on the world land speed record

As far as I'm concerned, I am in a facility meant for me, I'm using it properly and for motorbikes to deliberately enter it on red is a traffic offence. Not wishing to encourage them, I stay put and don't move for them. One guy forced his way past me and I heard him say 'F***king cyclist' under his crash helmet. Another guy squeezed behind me on my left, then cut me up by doing at right hand turn :evil:

Mopeds and scooters are by light-years the worst offenders. One asked me to move over once but I politely told him that he was not permitted in the box and should google highway code 178. Maybe I should have that printed on a hi-viz vest as a lot of bikers don't understand the rules at these junctions. Well I think a lot do but choose to ignore them. Some even try to cut you up as you can see in one of my videos.

http://www.youtube.com/user/CaptainNemo ... ature=mhee

beverick

bikeboon wrote:

Origamist wrote:

I was caught out here by a motorcyclist in an advisory cycle lane:

The youtube comment suggests it is not illegal for motorcyclists to use the advisory cycle lane - which most of London superhighways are.

Am shocked.

Appreciate if anyone can supply any references to read on this...

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/t ... ter-05.pdf

P95 applies. "Fill your boots" as the saying goes! Also use Google for several references......!

In the absence of any other markings or regulations, advisory cycle lanes are basically just paintwork to 'advise' motorists of the increased potential for cyclists to use that particular stretch of road. They have no legal status and are favoured ahead of mandatory lanes as they do not require Traffic Regulation Orders to be drafted (which can take months) meaning that they can be installed with minimum fuss and cost, and they tend to be treated in the same way as mandatory lanes by drivers of motor vehicles.

Although entering an advisory cycle lane is not itself an offence rule 140 of the Highway Code can be used to bring a conviction of careless driving (ie the motorcyclist and possibly the cyclist in the youtube clip elsewhere in this link) or support a conviction of dangerous driving. However the dangerous element would probably refer to some other adjacent incident involving the use of the cycle lane:
"140-Cycle lanes. These are shown by road markings and signs. You MUST NOT drive or park in a cycle lane marked by a solid white line during its times of operation. Do not drive or park in a cycle lane marked by a broken white line unless it is unavoidable. ....."
There may also be prima facea evidence that, by entering an advisory cycle lane, a motorist has caused an obstruction. Bizarely this may also apply to a cyclist if they were in the cycle lane under the same circumstances. It may also be possible, although unlikely, to bring a conviction for failing to observe traffic signs and directions if no other offence would stick!

Bob