Hardtail budget £1400

junglist_matty

I'm guessing after looking at my build thread

http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=17167430]On-One%20Carbon%20456

I recieved this PM from a fellow member:

blablablacksheep wrote:

Hi

Im looking into buying a hardtail and atm really interested in the 456 carbon bike that you have.

question is ofc, building myself or buying a package.

If i went for a package it would be the SLX trail for £1249 but unsure what upgrades to go for, as i have no idea if On-One wheels are any good ect.

im tempted to upgrade either the wheels or the fork as i have around £1400 to spend, question is which one ...

what would you suggest?

My old bike was a rockhoper and loved the agressive riding style of it, and the 456 from your posts and others seems to make this the perfect bike for those day rides+ability to push it hard


cheers

Thought I'd post it as a new thread to get more input from other people in the know......

junglist_matty

If you have a bunch of spare parts laying about that you can donate to this new build, or that you are willing to buy second hand gear I would say you are always going to get a better price buying a complete bike...

However, if you are willing to buy cheaper components then upgrade in time that is always a viable option if you have your heart set on a certain frame. This will work out cheaper for you in the long run than buying the steel 456 as a complete bike then in 12months time buy a carbon frame as you will need to buy other parts to suit the frame such as headset, seat post, seat clamp, all of which soon add up to another £100+

The SLX trail does look a good bike for the money, but then for £1400, it may be worth looking around for some last season bargains.


My Carbon456 would cost about £2000 if everything were brand new. If your set on building your own bike, for £1400 I'd use the following as a guide:

Frame: £400
Forks: £300
Wheels & tyres: £250
Frame & control parts: £200 (headset, bars, stem, seatpost, seat clamp, grips, pedals)
Drive Train: £300
Brakes: £150


Scroll through eBay to find good second hand bargains, there's plenty on there to be had, you could easily build a very good bike for under £1000 with full XT groupset if you are patient with eBay; Fox Vanilla forks like on my bike should be around £200 second hand for example....

blablablacksheep

thanks for the info,

one thing i have noticed is how much cheaper it is buying package deals compared to building your own, which is a shame given you learn a lot from DIY building.

Ebay is great but you dont get ofc any warranty on the parts and tranfering warrantys i believe doesnt work from what i have heard, so thats a pretty big downside.

atm i have worked out the following costs for a DIY build.
SLX groupset incl brakes £429
Hope Pro 2 Evo wheels £250
Rockshox fork £300ish

so that alone is pushing £1k without the frame so allready £1.4k.
Ofc second hand is cheaper but like i said before there are some big downsides to it.

Atm package deal looks a lot better given i could upgrade to a SID RLT TI Dual Air 120mm Fork or RockShox Revelation XX Dual Position Air 150mm Fork and cost £1.4

Brighty

Would it be an idea to buy a different complete bike, one with a good spec such as a boardman pro for 1k, strip it, sell the frame, buy the 456 frame, rebuild. Best of both worlds. Could work

Brighty

blablablacksheep

^^ :shock:

As the 456 carbon has pretty much full SLX that would seem pointless and also the headset ect dont work with the carbon 456,

its a nice idea but i cannot see it working with the 456,
Noticed the carbon boardman for £1599, but its too racy tbh compared to 456c.

still looking around for deals, as the only thing i unsure about with the 456C is their wheels and brakes tbh, anyone had exeprience with them?

junglist_matty

blablablacksheep wrote:

thanks for the info,

one thing i have noticed is how much cheaper it is buying package deals compared to building your own, which is a shame given you learn a lot from DIY building.

Ebay is great but you dont get ofc any warranty on the parts and tranfering warrantys i believe doesnt work from what i have heard, so thats a pretty big downside.

atm i have worked out the following costs for a DIY build.
SLX groupset incl brakes £429
Hope Pro 2 Evo wheels £250
Rockshox fork £300ish

so that alone is pushing £1k without the frame so allready £1.4k.
Ofc second hand is cheaper but like i said before there are some big downsides to it.

Atm package deal looks a lot better given i could upgrade to a SID RLT TI Dual Air 120mm Fork or RockShox Revelation XX Dual Position Air 150mm Fork and cost £1.4

Yes and No.... Just break it all down....

The spec for the On One 456 SLX Trail:

456 Frame £170
Revelation Forks £300
SLX Drive Train Groupset £285
Avid Elixir 3 Brakes £180 (over priced IMO)
FSA Pig HS (£15)
On One Grips (£10)
On One Bars (£20)
On One Inbred Saddle (£12.50)
Non QR Seat Clamp (£2)
Seat Post Twefty (£35)
FSA Stem (£15)
On One Wheels (£99)
Tyres (£30)
Tubes (£5)

Total = £1176.50

Saving you a grand total of £25.... For example, I think £180 is waaaayyy over what I'd pay for those brakes.... i.e. new Shimano SLX's cost the same and are far better (my opinion).

In other words, you get what you pay for.

junglist_matty

I would say build it yourself, you'll end up with a better bike at the end of the day and one that you will enjoy a lot more, here's what I'd go for....


Budget: £1400

Frame: Carbon 456 (£400)
http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/FROOCAR456N ... led-frame-

Remaining: £1000

Forks: RockShox Revelation RLT 140 (£300):
http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/FORSREVRLT1 ... th-poplock

Remaining: £700

SLX Drive Train Groupset (£285)
http://www.jejamescycles.co.uk/shimano- ... 69023.html

Remaining: £415

Formula K18 Brakeset (£126)
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=53568

Remaining: £289

Hope Pick n Mix headset (£54)
(TOP CUP: 2) http://www.ukbikestore.co.uk/product/24 ... -cups.html
(BOTTOM CUP: D) http://www.ukbikestore.co.uk/product/24 ... -cups.html

Remaining: £235

Superstar lightweight wheelset (£175)
http://superstar.tibolts.co.uk/product_ ... cts_id=485

Remaining: £60


On-One Stem (£10)
http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/STOO3DF/on_ ... orged-stem

On-One Bars (£20)
http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/HBOOFG/on_o ... -handlebar

On-One Seat Post (£10)
http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/SPOO272BKTS ... ost_-black

On-One Saddle (£12.50)
http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/SAOOBN/on_o ... ose-saddle

On-One Seat Clamp (£2)
http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/SCOOFOR/on_ ... mp-bolt-up

Remaining: £5.50


There, that's a full bike keeping within your budget that will be awesome and upgradable. All you have to do is take the pedals from your RockHopper bike, or just buy some new ones; I don't know if you ride flats or SPDs....

junglist_matty

Oh, I have a hard link to the On-One carbon456 frame and forks bundle they were doing (its no longer on their website) to save £100, its £600 for the C456 and revelation forks...

There's only 1 20" frame left at this price, so if you're over 6ft you should get this....

http://www.on-one.co.uk/b/q/FTCAR456REV ... rks-bundle

styxd

You may be able to get the groupset cheaper from one of the german sites such as action sports, rose bikes or bike 24

Also, Id get some 2nd hand mavic 717's on hope xc hubs. Around £120 usually and no doubt better than the SS stuff.

Buy 2nd hand seat post, seat and stem, no point putting cheap, heavy parts on a nice bike.

With the money saved, you could buy a Cotic Soul with an FSA headset.

The Spiderman

If you are looking for a long travel hardtail,have a look at the Voodoo Wanga at Halfords.£1k though last week there was a 20% off offer making it £800.It has 140mm RS Revs which are the tapered steerer version and 15mm bolt through,mainly 10 speed XT drivetain,(though a m552 chainset),Elixir R brakes,proper Maxxis Minion rubber,leaving you £400 to upgrade the wheels.Even as it stands its a good bike though you could save a chunk of weight by swapping out the tyres.

Or use it as the basis for a 456 carbon build when funds allow.

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_categoryId_165499_productId_786857_langId_-1?cm_mmc=Shopping-_-Google%20Product%20Search-_-Bikes%2FMens%20%26%20Womens%20Bikes%2FMountain%20Bikes-_-VooDoo%20Wanga%20Mountain%20Bike%202011%20-%2018%22%22&source=shopping

junglist_matty

The Spiderman wrote:

If you are looking for a long travel hardtail,have a look at the Voodoo Wanga at Halfords.£1k though last week there was a 20% off offer making it £800.It has 140mm RS Revs which are the tapered steerer version and 15mm bolt through,mainly 10 speed XT drivetain,(though a m552 chainset),Elixir R brakes,proper Maxxis Minion rubber,leaving you £400 to upgrade the wheels.Even as it stands its a good bike though you could save a chunk of weight by swapping out the tyres.

Or use it as the basis for a 456 carbon build when funds allow.

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_categoryId_165499_productId_786857_langId_-1?cm_mmc=Shopping-_-Google%20Product%20Search-_-Bikes%2FMens%20%26%20Womens%20Bikes%2FMountain%20Bikes-_-VooDoo%20Wanga%20Mountain%20Bike%202011%20-%2018%22%22&source=shopping

That voodoo looks an amazing price

blablablacksheep

the main reson i was going for the C456 was the carbon frame and also the ability to upgrade to a better fork.**

**(the 140mm is nice but was tempted by upgrading to a RockShox SID RLT TI Dual Air 120mm Fork, and maybe the upgraded wheels, though £200 is a fair bit for them) :shock:

That was the main aim, ability to customise to a decent bike, as i agree the brakes and wheels are the weakest part of the On-One 456C.

Another option im looking into is building around a Cotic Soul, as i might be able to streach to £1600 so could build up a Soul with though not as good forks, but pretty decent kit ie Hope 2 wheels+full SLX incl wheels

last option was looking at the boardman carbon for £1599 given i just been reading the MTB review, though its hard to decide atm..

If all fails i been told by a mate to buy a Rock Lobster titanium as i quote" its the dogs bollocks" and actually looks pretty good, though better than carbon :roll:

your suggestions allways welcome and very much help in making the process easyer 8)

delcol

i have always found it cheaper to spec my own and build my own bikes..

using the web to find the best deals on parts or contacts in the trade to get me bits at cost price....
that way i get the bike i want and the spec i'm happy with...

remember goggle is your friend.. and ebay saves you money..

also try haggle yourself a deal with one-one... if you dont ask you dont get....

blablablacksheep

also try haggle yourself a deal with one-one... if you dont ask you dont get....

good point, many times i totally forget to haggle. :roll:

Atm i in contact with a bike shop in brixton(its supposed to be good, honest) about getting a Cotic Soul frame, and giving it a test which would help a lot in deciding which bike/frame to go for.

One question i have though is how good is the Cotic Soul frame compared to the 456C?? given its steel and thus has limitations+weight.

Halfords one is nice but the frame kind of lets it down tbh, so i think building around a 456/Cotic would be better.

My last option is buying a package deal like i said, and with that i been told that the Rock Lobster Ti is a very good bike,or consider the Boardman carbon rather than the 456C, though is there any differance in terms of quality between the frames?

And again thanks for the replys, it helps a lot

Curious Yellow

Was waiting till November for the Carbon 456 frame to be in stock again because that was what On-One told me, but got this e-mail from from them the other day:

You requested a stock alert from On-One on 25-09-2011.

We're sorry to say that On-One Carbon 456 Un-Decaled Frame / Matt Black Painted / 16 In has now been discontinued. We are not expecting to get any more in stock.

We usually discontinue an item when it is superseded by an alternative. Check out our site to see what's currently available or contact us to let us find you an alternative.

Not sure what this means for the Carbon 456. Are they updating the design? Or are they not making it in this finish anymore? No information on the site yet.

EDIT: The designer has confirmed that it is only certain colours that have been discontinued.

I'm intrigued by what you mean by "are the wheels any good"? Are you concerned about their weight, durability, "upgradeability"? If they're significantly lighter than what you've got, then you'll notice a difference. I went from a nearly 2kg wheelset to a 1.4kg wheelset and it was like riding a different bike entirely.

I'd offer you the old adage with kit. Good, fast, cheap. Pick 2, you can't have all three.

Interesting breakdown from junglist_matty. I thought you'd get a slightly better deal than full retail buying a full bike, but seems there's a markup. Perhaps some of the labour costs are being passed on to the buyer when you buy from a lesser known manufacturer?

I understand what people say about building their own bikes, but it becomes a bit of a timesuck if you've not got much experience doing it. Personally, I'd cough up the extra £100 to have the LBS do it and go riding in the time I'd saved!

blablablacksheep

interesting about those 456 frames you mentioned.

I am most likely going to pass on the carbon 456 given that the cost of building on up isnt going to be that much less than buying a Boardman Carbon which has clearly a lot better spec than i could achieve for DIY on a 456 frame...and 120mm is more than enough for me atm.

Also further calls ect and i have found i can get Cotic to put headset+BB into the frame for me before i buy it so would save on labour if i did myself and tool costs.

So this pretty much gives the Cotic Soul brownie points.

The other option like i said before is the Rock Lobster Titanium SLX build on reba 120mm poplock forks....though i would need a 2:30min drive to test one :shock:

So to sum up, its down to

Cotic Soul (DIY)
Boardman carbon
Rock Lobster titanium

Question i have is how good is the RL titanium? beter than Cotic soul steel? or different and if so how given the reviews for both have simular comments ie "dampens the ride ect"

thanks for help again as allways 8)

Anonymous

456 X9 Carbon? Slightly over budget at £1499

Obviously X9 group set
Rock Shox Revelation RL Dual Air Poplock 20mm
Maxxis Crossmark 2.25 tyres

and the other bits on-one stuff.

http://www.on-one.co.uk/i/q/PBOOC456X9/ ... plete-bike


If you're prepared to wait the frames may pop up in the sale again. They were down to £300 (or was it even £250) at one point.

Boardman Carbon MTB Pro is a nice spec, but £100 more still.

supersonic

Don't understand why the 456 carbon is costly to build, when the Soul is about the same price, and the ti frames much more!

junglist_matty

supersonic wrote:

Don't understand why the 456 carbon is costly to build, when the Soul is about the same price, and the ti frames much more!

Depends what components you're set on getting.... You could build one for dirt cheap if you either get budget gear or buy second hand parts for dirt cheap, however, I don't think the OP is interested in second hand....

I'd go for second hand parts on the On One frame, but that's just me! You should easily be able to bag a top of the range super lightweight set of SID 120mm forks for £300 on eBay.... Or even a set of Hope hoops... Instantly that's saving you in the region of £4-500 and getting top of the range gear

junglist_matty

supersonic wrote:

Don't understand why the 456 carbon is costly to build, when the Soul is about the same price, and the ti frames much more!

Depends what components you're set on getting.... You could build one for dirt cheap if you either get budget gear or buy second hand parts for dirt cheap, however, I don't think the OP is interested in second hand....

I'd go for second hand parts on the On One frame, but that's just me! You should easily be able to bag a top of the range super lightweight set of SID 120mm forks for £300 on eBay.... Or even a set of Hope hoops... Instantly that's saving you in the region of £4-500 and getting top of the range gear

junglist_matty

example second hand forks that are far better than the revelations mentioned above for the same cash.....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2011-RockShox ... 500wt_1075

OR

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2010-Fox-Floa ... 500wt_1075


Both be very good on a C456.

blablablacksheep

Thanks for the replys, it does help

i dismissed the 456 carbon as i can get the boardman carbon for £1599 which has the sort of kit i could never get on a 456 Carbon, and end of the day carbon is carbon and reading the reviews the Boardman carbon is still is very good.

If i did build myself then a Cotic Soul would be the choice, as this seems to be one of the best hardtail frames from the reviews it gets, ofc i could never get the sort of kit that the Boardman has, but if need be second hand parts could be used to get close.

Then Titanium is a option though would be from Rock lobster.

My question is though:

Which frame, is the Cotic soul out dated now with Carbon frames like the Boardman carbon?

Also, how good is the Rock Lobster Titanium frame?
its cheap yes, but reading the review sounds like it actually quite good, but how is it different to the Cotic Soul?(by this i mean both take "sting" out of ride but whats the difference between them, riding wise?)

supersonic

junglist_matty wrote:

example second hand forks that are far better than the revelations mentioned above for the same cash.....

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2011-RockShox ... 500wt_1075

OR

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2010-Fox-Floa ... 500wt_1075


Both be very good on a C456.

Better than the Revaltion RL? In what way?

Stu Coops

In my opinion unless ya paying over £1500 for a carbon frame all you are buying is crap carbon, ya better off using the money you have and buying a decent aluminuim hardtail.

The reason for carbon is super stiff monocoque frame and super light, you aint gonna get any of those with cheap carbon as there are so many different grades.

junglist_matty

Don't listen to all you read.

I had my eye on the C456 frame for quite some time, when it came to it, a friend of mine has a 456 steel, so I borrowed it and took it for a ride and felt right at home on the geometry (even though his has 100mm forks).... The next day I ordered the C456 frame.

Buying blind is one of the silliest things you can do... I did it in 2002 when my bike was stolen, on the insurance I was able to get a £1000 voucher with wheelies direct. I scanned their website in detail and after reading hundreds of reviews I went with the Trek 6700 disc (£999.99).
The bike arrived, I did a few checks and took it out for a ride.... I hated it, yet there were so many glowing reviews.

supersonic

There is no such thing as crap carbon on the frames available today. The current manufacturing out in the far east is absolutley superb with even the budget frames we see.

Stu Coops

In my opinion unless ya paying over £1500 for a carbon frame all you are buying is crap carbon, ya better off using the money you have and buying a decent aluminuim hardtail.

The reason for carbon is super stiff monocoque frame and super light, you aint gonna get any of those with cheap carbon as there are so many different grades.

as for carbon is carbon you couldn't be more wrong as if that were the case then why can you get some for £400 and other for £2500.

Don't mean to sound arsey but spend ya money wisely this kind of carbon is crap

supersonic

as for carbon is carbon you couldn't be more wrong as if that were the case then why can you get some for £400 and other for £2500.

Can you expand on this? Any examples? Many cost more because have a manufacturers name written on them, and are bought through distributors/retailers/importers, all taking a profit cut. This adds up. Some of the cheap frames you see are made in the same factory by the same people to the same standard as far costlier models.

junglist_matty

Stu Coops wrote:

In my opinion unless ya paying over £1500 for a carbon frame all you are buying is crap carbon, ya better off using the money you have and buying a decent aluminuim hardtail.

What are you chatting about?

Anonymous

Stu Coops wrote:

as for carbon is carbon you couldn't be more wrong as if that were the case then why can you get some for £400 and other for £2500.

Brand, frame design, geometry, full sus vs hard tail, and so many other reasons.

You're not comparing like with like it seems.

Carbon costs more than aluminium for sure, and there are some degrees of quality, but I suspect you're thinking of two entirely different bikes and it's the bike that's different, not the carbon.

To put it another way. The £400 model, for example a Carbon 456. It's a little more expensive than the steel version. The £2500 model, I don't know what you're thinking of, but what's the aluminium version cost? Probably a bit less, but still going to be £1k to £2k I suspect.

Different bikes basically. The material is one part of it, but the bulk of the price is the frame design.

Now if you want to scoff at cheap 456 frames in general vs ones costing thousands, regardless of the material, then that's another matter. Feel free.

Personally this whole "unless you pay £XXXX, it's rubbish" snobbery is just that, snobbery. You do get what you pay for to a degree, but that doesn't mean things of lower price can't be good value for money and do the job fine. True, there are BSOs down at the bottom end, but no one here is talking about that kind of crap (and anyway if they were, they'd be steel full sus bikes for £300 that weigh a tonne, not carbon frames ).

styxd

To be honest, it sounds like you dont have a clue. Just buy any of those bikes you mentioned, I'm sure you'll be happy with it. They are all decent.