LCC vison for blackfriars

roger_merriman

http://lcc.org.uk/pages/people-friendly-blackfriars

and

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2011/oct/10/blackfriars-junction-redesign?newsfeed=true

Kerbed cycle lanes, really? and you've still got bike lanes luring the unwise into the left hand turning lane of buses etc.

iPete

I can't be bothered to think about this in details but does this not cover it?

RISK-FREE TURNS Right-turning cyclists have their own traffic lights for extra safety

As for kerbed cycle lanes, I'm a 'vehicular cyclist' so not ideal but can see the bigger picture. If your less 'road warrior' friends and family are cycling around the city, which do you prefer they use?

roger_merriman

iPete wrote:

I can't be bothered to think about this in details but does this not cover it?

RISK-FREE TURNS Right-turning cyclists have their own traffic lights for extra safety

As for kerbed cycle lanes, I'm a 'vehicular cyclist' so not ideal but can see the bigger picture. If your less 'road warrior' friends and family are cycling around the city, which do you prefer they use?

they say "RISK-FREE TURNS Right-turning cyclists have their own traffic lights for extra safety" But the graphics do not show that they just show ASL with some more traffic lights both bikes and rest of traffic moving off at the same time.

there is also no graphics of traffic joining the embankment off the Bridge either they have planned to block that off?

LCC has some big claims with out anything to back it up thus far.

This said I do like simper road systems and a double T junction is simpler.

ooermissus

You can clearly see traffic lights for bikes to turn first, and one bike path that swoops right across a junction.

roger_merriman

ooermissus wrote:

You can clearly see traffic lights for bikes to turn first, and one bike path that swoops right across a junction.

They are Just ASL the animations show both bikes (blue) and the rest (Red) setting off at the same time.

bikes are not getting there own light sequence say, and are still sharing the road with metal, but this time lured into feeling safe by the pretty coloured tarmac.

iPete

Don't take the animation as fact, they were done free of charge after all

A tad un-fair to call this pretty coloured tarmac, its streets ahead of any of the super highways.

roger_merriman

iPete wrote:

Don't take the animation as fact, they were done free of charge after all

A tad un-fair to call this pretty coloured tarmac, its streets ahead of any of the super highways.

It is free and also unlikely to happen.

But it also has it's own issues if anything the danger from being left hooked by embankment bound traffic is worse as cars attempt to beat bikes away from the lights and turn.

Headhuunter

iPete wrote:

I can't be bothered to think about this in details but does this not cover it?

RISK-FREE TURNS Right-turning cyclists have their own traffic lights for extra safety

As for kerbed cycle lanes, I'm a 'vehicular cyclist' so not ideal but can see the bigger picture. If your less 'road warrior' friends and family are cycling around the city, which do you prefer they use?

Yeah I would not be a fan of kerbed cycle lanes, like the one across Southwark Bridge. Basically all cyclists would be forced to travel at the speed of the slowest in 1 long queue. I can see that it might inspire less confident cyclists to venture across Blackfriars Bridge, however unless it's part of a larger scheme of kerbed cycle lanes across London, it won't make any difference. Also how long would it be before the kerbed cycle lane was filled with litter, broken glass and other detritus and not cleaned regularly... No thanks, I'll stay on the road...

notsoblue

I'd dislike any cycle infrastructure that forced me to use it rather than the more convenient road. I'd rather ride with cars than be held up :?

iPete

Yes its only one bridge but it has start somewhere surely?! A change in thinking at TFL and with the mayor that puts the people first, not the private motor vehicle, not in zone 1.

I'm afraid that we are the "elite" minority of road warriors and building sustainable, people friendly routes for the masses comes first. It worries me that many of my colleagues use these routes as they currently are and many many more don't cycle for the same reason. If the major junctions in the area were properly built with people in mind (elephant, kings x, vauxhal parliament square etc.) many of the blocks to cycling would erode.

roger, what exactly do you propose to make this risk 0, bearing in mind loads has been done mitigate it far more than the current design and given that a separate light system would give cyclist a huge head start, it'll be an unlikely scenario to see people racing to the turns.

Note the kerbed cyle lanes are wide enough for 2 bikes.

The kerbed bike lanes we've used are wide enough for overtaking, meaning everyone gets to work on time, and confident cyclists can ride with motor traffic if they choose.

Headhuunter

iPete wrote:

Yes its only one bridge but it has start somewhere surely?! A change in thinking at TFL and with the mayor that puts the people first, not the private motor vehicle, not in zone 1.

I'm afraid that we are the "elite" minority of road warriors and building sustainable, people friendly routes for the masses comes first. It worries me that many of my colleagues use these routes as they currently are and many many more don't cycle for the same reason. If the major junctions in the area were properly built with people in mind (elephant, kings x, vauxhal parliament square etc.) many of the blocks to cycling would erode.

roger, what exactly do you propose to make this risk 0, bearing in mind loads has been done mitigate it far more than the current design and given that a separate light system would give cyclist a huge head start, it'll be an unlikely scenario to see people racing to the turns.

Note the kerbed cyle lanes are wide enough for 2 bikes.

The kerbed bike lanes we've used are wide enough for overtaking, meaning everyone gets to work on time, and confident cyclists can ride with motor traffic if they choose.

I doubt in practice that slower riders would ride in a queue allowing faster riders to whizz past, Whenever I have experienced dedicated, kerbed cycle lanes in the past, slower cyclists tend to ride 2-3 abreast having a chat, just as pedestrians walk 2-3 abreast talking..... As a "confident" cyclist, I would use the road but I would expect that this would generate anger from motorists who would assume (incorrectly) that if there is a kerbed cycle lane, I should be on it...

iPete

I posted the same response a few month ago but I've come around to the bigger pictures: Large scale, sustainable, people friendly routes around London take priority over road warriors like myself.

It needs to start sooner rather than later and will take many many years but a people friendly London with less cars and less pollution [and less lycra on show] is something worth pushing for.

notsoblue

iPete wrote:

I posted the same response a few month ago but I've come around to the bigger pictures: Large scale, sustainable, people friendly routes around London take priority over road warriors like myself.

It needs to start sooner rather than later and will take many many years but a people friendly London with less cars and less pollution [and less lycra on show] is something worth pushing for.

Yeah, I totally agree. I was just being selfish... I just don't want to end up being considered one of those cyclists who "brings it upon themselves"

I'm all for the changes, I just probably won't use infrastructure like that myself.

mybreakfastconsisted

More about TFL's criminal lack of action elsewhere in London:

http://www.kingscrossenvironment.com/20 ... pdate.html

They were explicitly warned in a report they suppressed that someone would be killed.

Headhuunter

iPete wrote:

I posted the same response a few month ago but I've come around to the bigger pictures: Large scale, sustainable, people friendly routes around London take priority over road warriors like myself.

It needs to start sooner rather than later and will take many many years but a people friendly London with less cars and less pollution [and less lycra on show] is something worth pushing for.

Yeah I can see that for the greater good, divided, segregated cycle lanes would be useful, however I doubt there is the space on London's roads (or the political will or finance) for this to be extended across London, so effectively, like Southwark Bridge, it would just be 1 isolated example of segregation. As for lycra - not sure that fashion has much to do with it! :P

iPete

There is space but it needs political will and more importantly some balls, who knows, if the LCC flash rides keep growing (200, 600, 2500) and continue to include mayoral candidates and all party representation, it could start the ball rolling.

Take a look at CS8, for some part an entire car lane was removed (AFAIK), it just takes some tougher planning, intelligent design and those balls I mentioned earler . 100% segregation isn't necessarily an option but its possible to create something more than blue paint.

roger_merriman

iPete wrote:

roger, what exactly do you propose to make this risk 0, bearing in mind loads has been done mitigate it far more than the current design and given that a separate light system would give cyclist a huge head start, it'll be an unlikely scenario to see people racing to the turns.

What huge head start? just as ASL with additional light, but not there own light sequence.

On all of the right turns the bike would have either left turning or straight ahead traffic, to contend with. the risk would I think be quite high.

even worse any bike that fails to find a gap to turn right into Queen Victoria Street, will now be waiting in the gap in the Kerb that right turning bikes from Queen Victoria Street will be needing to use.

The more I look at the plans (the animations are wishful thinking) the less it looks thought though.

iPete

I took it as cyclists having their own light sequence but to he honest I can't sum it up better than their blog, its not perfect but its an idea and a step in the right direction..