How do you win a sportive?

js14

Coming from France, I can't understand what the fuss is all about. The French Cycling Federation has a whole set of rules dealing with Cyclosportives which it defines as mass participation cycling endurance events with individual performance measurement and classifications.

Like all cycling events on French public roads, official authorisation is required and the organisers need to have insurance cover for a competitive sports event. Participants have to obey the rules of the road but potentially dangerous road junctions often have marshalls to stop traffic and give priority to the cyclists. I'm not sure what the legal status of the marshall is but motorists seem to accept having to wait a few minutes for the cyclists to pass, even when the rules of the road would normally give priority to the other vehicules. The roads used for the start and finish are usually closed to other traffic by order of the local mayor, so that takes care of the problems with red traffic lights in the town. The leading group of cyclists gets its own motorcycle escort to open up the road ahead so that they can concentrate on going fast.

True, the cyclosportives are not races in the strictess sense of the word but as anyone who has done the Etape will know, you need a medical certificate that says you are fit to take part in competitive cycling. Most people are going to be pushing themselves to either beat their own goal or beat the other competitors.

derbygrimpeur

France has a similar population to the UK but is a much bigger country. The roads are empty compared to the UK. Generally, the population is much more accepting of cyclists than the UK. You can't compare France/UK.

jgsi

derbygrimpeur wrote:

France has a similar population to the UK but is a much bigger country. The roads are empty compared to the UK. Generally, the population is much more accepting of cyclists than the UK. You can't compare France/UK.

begs a question then as to whether the Uk wants to totally re organise sportives on a basis akin to France and Italy to name but 2 countries, where such rides are more or less competitive races, if the particiapant wants to accept it as such.
Who though will take that first step?
And if that does happen, I am then wondering what would happen to the still fragile road race scene in the UK?
Anyways at the moment they are 'fun runs' on a bike

derbygrimpeur

JGSI wrote:

begs a question then as to whether the Uk wants to totally re organise sportives on a basis akin to France and Italy

The answer to that is "no". The authorities simply wouldn't allow it. You're effectively saying that sportives should be run like road races, because that's what the authorities would expect. Logistically, that would be a nightmare, and would increase costs substantially I'm sure.

Having ridden a couple of sportives, I was focussed on achieving a certain time for myself. It also happened to be relatively well placed compared to other riders' times. I think the system is fine as it is.

js14

Obviously the French system puts a great administrative burden on the organisers as they have to comply with the legal requirements for using public roads and supply all the paper work months in advance. However I think the cycling federations are probably pretty well honed on the details and can help smooth the path with the public bodies involved. Entry costs remain acceptable, around £20 to £25, but that is also due to the fact that the cycling clubs organising the events can mobilise a lot of volunteers, who give their time for free.

Yes England, especially the south-east, is more crowded than France but there are plenty of country roads away from the main towns which are no busier than French roads. I think you are probably right that French drivers are more tolerant of cyclists. After all for most drivers you are talking about a few minutes delay on a Sunday morning or a Saturday afternoon once a year for the local sportive. If drivers find that inacceptable, they should really consider if they are fit and proper persons to have a driving licence.

oldwelshman

DaveMoss wrote:

How long before we get some sponsored "not racing" teams in sportives?

Despite what other posters have said Sportives really are like mass participation running marathons, but without the winners and prizes (or the massed start in most cases) . I.e most of the "competitors" know they haven't got a cat in hells chance of winning, or even coming close, but still try for either the best time they can get, or at the slower end, to get round without too much walking.

One subtle, but significant difference, in a sportive the riders who probably could be fastest know it's not a race so ride with a few mates rather than going for the fastest time, which means whoever does end up with the fastest time is no more a "winner" than the guy with the slowest time who still completed the course.

You already have team events in the chilterns sportive.
Many people regard sportives as a race, quite often when I see riders out and I chat with them and ask if they race they reply and said they raed in the dragon ride or some other sportive. As other said they all check the sites for their results and although it may be posted in random order it is not rocket science to sort them in order using excell.
I only rode one in the UK his year and that was for training and most of the people I saw there certainly treated it as a race, as other said, if you have a number and a timing chip majority will see it as a race, if you do not want it thought that way, no chip, no time and just enjoy the ride as a club ride.

jgsi

oldwelshman wrote:

DaveMoss wrote:

How long before we get some sponsored "not racing" teams in sportives?

Despite what other posters have said Sportives really are like mass participation running marathons, but without the winners and prizes (or the massed start in most cases) . I.e most of the "competitors" know they haven't got a cat in hells chance of winning, or even coming close, but still try for either the best time they can get, or at the slower end, to get round without too much walking.

One subtle, but significant difference, in a sportive the riders who probably could be fastest know it's not a race so ride with a few mates rather than going for the fastest time, which means whoever does end up with the fastest time is no more a "winner" than the guy with the slowest time who still completed the course.

You already have team events in the chilterns sportive.
Many people regard sportives as a race, quite often when I see riders out and I chat with them and ask if they race they reply and said they raed in the dragon ride or some other sportive. As other said they all check the sites for their results and although it may be posted in random order it is not rocket science to sort them in order using excell.
I only rode one in the UK his year and that was for training and most of the people I saw there certainly treated it as a race, as other said, if you have a number and a timing chip majority will see it as a race, if you do not want it thought that way, no chip, no time and just enjoy the ride as a club ride.

Thats the last time I go to the front in a sportive then,

FJS

DaveMoss wrote:

How long before we get some sponsored "not racing" teams in sportives?.

The italian Gran Fondos have teams, with support cars and all. There are international sponsored teams as well doing the major continental sportives. For instance http://www.veltec-granfondo.nl/

Interesting nobody mentions UK reliability rides in here. In the couple UK sportives I've done I've seen very few riders do anything remotely like racing (as in BC race); but the reliability rides on the other hand....

bompington

We're really getting into "how many angels can dance on a pinhead" hair-splitting here aren't we? Given that there isn't actually a precise dictionary definition of what is or isn't a sportive, audax, randonee, reliability ride, toertacht, etc. etc. With the vast number of different sportives nowadays there are definitely some which do have, effectively, a "mass start where the first across the line is the winner" - whatever anyone says - at one be end of the spectrum, and ones where riders just turn up and start when they feel like at the other. It only really seems to matter because there's this - to my mind pretty arbitrary - distinction in British law between races and other events.
That and the Real Cyclists who are determined to keep looking down on all the Not Real Cyclists who make up the bulk of sportive participants - which I strongly suspect is the real reason why threads like this keep on going.

Pseudonym

bompington wrote:

With the vast number of different sportives nowadays there are definitely some which do have, effectively, a "mass start where the first across the line is the winner"

which ones - give us a list....

PostieJohn

I enjoy riding Sportives.
I like to ride on different roads, to the usual routes.
I like to ride as fast as I can in these events, because I see it as an EVENT.
I like to see how fast my fast is, compared to others.

Now all that sounds like a race to me.
If it's not a race, don't time it.

But I ride on the road where I'm the one killed to death if I don't adhere to the laws of the road, (or even if I do) so it's Highway Code all the way for me.

jibberjim

PostieJohn wrote:

Now all that sounds like a race to me.
If it's not a race, don't time it.

But I ride on the road where I'm the one killed to death if I don't adhere to the laws of the road, (or even if I do) so it's Highway Code all the way for me.

If you believe it to be a race though, then you're not adhering to the laws, as cycle racing on the highway is an offence - and it would be committed by all competitors - so if you believe it's a race, then as it doesn't have the required permission from the relevant powers then you must also believe you're breaking the law?

juggler

I tend to pace my ride to try and get inside the Gold time as published by the organises... tryng to get from A to B in a certain time on public roads does not constitute a race to me.

There may be a element of trying to keep up with or overtake other riders on the road, but that happens virtually every time i ride my bike.

Just getting ready for the Sunday club run... will try not to be too competive...

PostieJohn

jibberjim wrote:

PostieJohn wrote:

Now all that sounds like a race to me.
If it's not a race, don't time it.

But I ride on the road where I'm the one killed to death if I don't adhere to the laws of the road, (or even if I do) so it's Highway Code all the way for me.

If you believe it to be a race though, then you're not adhering to the laws, as cycle racing on the highway is an offence - and it would be committed by all competitors - so if you believe it's a race, then as it doesn't have the required permission from the relevant powers then you must also believe you're breaking the law?

So why time and gold 'reward' it, if it patently isn't a race.

You can't have it both ways

Stedman

I was always under the impression that sportives were originally intended to be semi-competitive, however if I am wrong, I don’t understand why events organisers cannot be honest about this and take away our numbers, timing chips and the gold, silver and bronze timing bands from us on all open road events and hold us back at feed stations if we are too quick?

I am of the opinion that commercial events organisers desperately need cycling events as an income stream, and without road closures to turn these into proper mass road races, timing is the only Unique Selling Point which they have left.

js14

JS14 wrote:

I'm not sure what the legal status of the marshall is but motorists seem to accept having to wait a few minutes for the cyclists to pass, even when the rules of the road would normally give priority to the other vehicules.

Answering my own point on French law: the authorities issue temporary orders giving priority at junctions to the cycling event over other road users. The event organisers provide volunteer marshalls "signaleurs", equipped with a copy of the administrative order and lollipop style STOP signs to block other traffic while the cyclists pass. If a motorist refuses to obey the STOP instruction from the marshall, he is committing a driving offence and can be reported to the local police.

Looking at the British Cycling website, it seems part of the problem is that marshalls have no clear legal right to block traffic in the UK and the paying the costs for police officers to do this is prohibitive. The other part of the problem seems to be that the UK is full of NIMBY motorists who won't make any concessions to cycling but I'm afraid there is not much you can do about selfish gits anywhere.

dead sheep

Stedman wrote:

I am of the opinion that commercial events organisers desperately need cycling events as an income stream, and without road closures to turn these into proper mass road races, timing is the only Unique Selling Point which they have left.

You are totally correct. However, their USP is likely to land them into hot water unless statute changes on the use of the public highway for cycle racing. The publication of rider's time within an event could be deemed as racing.

Perhaps it is time for the operators to get the heads together and lobby the DfT for change.

jgsi

It is always a task to get the marshaling numbers up for a lets say 12mile road race circuit and we all have to give up a race or 2 in the season to assist..... bit of an issue for sportive organisers to cover all the pinch points and major junctions on a 100 miler..... they cannot depend on the goodwill of club members to volunteer as can race organisers

dead sheep

JGSI wrote:

It is always a task to get the marshaling numbers up for a lets say 12mile road race circuit and we all have to give up a race or 2 in the season to assist..... bit of an issue for sportive organisers to cover all the pinch points and major junctions on a 100 miler..... they cannot depend on the goodwill of club members to volunteer as can race organisers

....and if the sportive operator is running the event as a profit making venture, club members are unlikely to be willing to 'volunteer' for free?

Like you, I am happy to support local races, time trials, charity events or audaxes but I would not be willing to help a commercial operator line their pockets from a £30-£60 entrance fee without remuneration.

jgsi

dead sheep wrote:

JGSI wrote:

It is always a task to get the marshaling numbers up for a lets say 12mile road race circuit and we all have to give up a race or 2 in the season to assist..... bit of an issue for sportive organisers to cover all the pinch points and major junctions on a 100 miler..... they cannot depend on the goodwill of club members to volunteer as can race organisers

....and if the sportive operator is running the event as a profit making venture, club members are unlikely to be willing to 'volunteer' for free?

well I wouldnt.... bad marshalling has caused a bit of a headache for Etape cymru as that thread has shown.... my own experience on UK sportives is always to ride with caution and never ever at race pace in situations that demand attention to the road.

TimB34

dead sheep wrote:

Stedman wrote:

I am of the opinion that commercial events organisers desperately need cycling events as an income stream, and without road closures to turn these into proper mass road races, timing is the only Unique Selling Point which they have left.

You are totally correct. However, their USP is likely to land them into hot water unless statute changes on the use of the public highway for cycle racing. The publication of rider's time within an event could be deemed as racing.

Perhaps it is time for the operators to get the heads together and lobby the DfT for change.

This will never happen.

Sportive organisers are making money with the current "not a race" sportives.

They might make more money if they were allowed to make the events competitive (and publish rankings, give prizes, etc) - the events would probably be a lot better if the competitive element was acknowledged, and certainly a lot better if cyclists had priority at road junctions as described for the French cyclos. Personally I've never done a UK sportive and don't really see the point without a final ranking. I've done a couple of French ones and even though I've always finished in the bottom half of the ranking it certainly adds a certain je ne sais quoi...

The organisers have no motive to push for change (they may be forced to change if any Police Authorities start getting eggy about the competitive element, but that's a different problem).

I imagine that it's cycling clubs who could benefit the most from being able to legally run competitive cyclosportives : they are the only group who have both a vested non-financial interest in having good events available to their sporting community, and who have the volunteer manpower available to properly marshall such an event. But I doubt that any of them see it that way either.

giropaul

TimB34 wrote:

dead sheep wrote:

Stedman wrote:

I am of the opinion that commercial events organisers desperately need cycling events as an income stream, and without road closures to turn these into proper mass road races, timing is the only Unique Selling Point which they have left.

You are totally correct. However, their USP is likely to land them into hot water unless statute changes on the use of the public highway for cycle racing. The publication of rider's time within an event could be deemed as racing.

Perhaps it is time for the operators to get the heads together and lobby the DfT for change.

This will never happen.

Sportive organisers are making money with the current "not a race" sportives.

They might make more money if they were allowed to make the events competitive (and publish rankings, give prizes, etc) - the events would probably be a lot better if the competitive element was acknowledged, and certainly a lot better if cyclists had priority at road junctions as described for the French cyclos. Personally I've never done a UK sportive and don't really see the point without a final ranking. I've done a couple of French ones and even though I've always finished in the bottom half of the ranking it certainly adds a certain je ne sais quoi...

The organisers have no motive to push for change (they may be forced to change if any Police Authorities start getting eggy about the competitive element, but that's a different problem).

I imagine that it's cycling clubs who could benefit the most from being able to legally run competitive cyclosportives : they are the only group who have both a vested non-financial interest in having good events available to their sporting community, and who have the volunteer manpower available to properly marshall such an event. But I doubt that any of them see it that way either.

Cycling clubs do organise lots of competitive rides, with timings and placings - they're called races!

Stedman

The crux of the problem is that TV often promotes the endurance aspect of our sport with events such as the Tour-de-France and Tour of Britain etc; however for the majority of us the UK sportive scene is only way that we are remotely going to have access to this aspect of our sport.

Why it is that running can organise mass (open) entrance events without all the hassle that we have? The London Marathon and Great Northern Run are big TV events, why can’t we do the same?

Isn’t it about time that we ought to be moving on from commercially organised sportives and take ownership of this?

derbygrimpeur

Stedman wrote:

Why it is that running can organise mass (open) entrance events without all the hassle that we have? The London Marathon and Great Northern Run are big TV events, why can’t we do the same?

Part of the reason this is possible is that it only requires road closures of max 26.2 miles. Most running events don't even involve road closures, at least not for the whole event. The cost of even these relatively small road closures is very expensive. To do something similar for endurance cycling events would be prohibitively expensive.

Wallace1492

Stedman wrote:

I have also had the distinction of finishing first in a sportive (albeit joint first), however I along with the rest of the 800+ finishers are all winners and we all have the same medal to prove it!

My heroes are the ones who are new to this sport or find the course more challenging than I do which is why I am a member of suzyb’s fan club!

Suzy has a fanclub!! Count me as a member.... I have had the privilidge to bike with her on several occassions and seen the delight on her face as she cleared a rather steep descent on her MTB....

giropaul

Stedman wrote:

The crux of the problem is that TV often promotes the endurance aspect of our sport with events such as the Tour-de-France and Tour of Britain etc; however for the majority of us the UK sportive scene is only way that we are remotely going to have access to this aspect of our sport.

quote]

Actually I think that it the reverse. Riding sportives will not get anyone any closer to riding a Grand Tour. I know a few riders who are currently riding at world level, in the big Tours, - and they all started with club riding, racing as School or Junior, through 3/4 cat races, gained points, went up the categories.

So, in my view, the only access to "this aspect of our sport" is through racing, not sportives.

derbygrimpeur

giropaul > I don't think Stedman was implying that we can all aspire to be TdF riders by entering sportives. But for people like myself, that prefer endurance or hilly events, sportives are perhaps the better option.

js14

TimB34 wrote:

Sportive organisers are making money with the current "not a race" sportives.

They might make more money if they were allowed to make the events competitive (and publish rankings, give prizes, etc) - the events would probably be a lot better if the competitive element was acknowledged, and certainly a lot better if cyclists had priority at road junctions as described for the French cyclos.

Interestingly the French Cycling Federation's rules prohibit cash prizes for cyclosportives and any prizes must only have an honorary value. I guess it is to clearly distinguish cyclosportives from races. Also to race, you need a higher category licence and not the Pass'cyclosportive licence.

jgsi

JS14 wrote:

TimB34 wrote:

Sportive organisers are making money with the current "not a race" sportives.

They might make more money if they were allowed to make the events competitive (and publish rankings, give prizes, etc) - the events would probably be a lot better if the competitive element was acknowledged, and certainly a lot better if cyclists had priority at road junctions as described for the French cyclos.

Interestingly the French Cycling Federation's rules prohibit cash prizes for cyclosportives and any prizes must only have an honorary value. I guess it is to clearly distinguish cyclosportives from races. Also to race, you need a higher category licence and not the Pass'cyclosportive licence.

that allows room for the side bets then

markos1963

Participants have to obey the rules of the road but potentially dangerous road junctions often have marshalls to stop traffic and give priority to the cyclists. I'm not sure what the legal status of the marshall is but motorists seem to accept having to wait a few minutes for the cyclists to pass, even when the rules of the road would normally give priority to the other vehicules






For a marshall to have the power to halt traffic on English roads they have to be accredited race marshalls. These are usually BC trained and are far too busy being used on the race scene as they are in short supply. Mind it's pretty pointless as so many drivers will do whatever they can to ignore directions to stop. We had one drive straight through on our road race this year and ended up colliding with a rider who was sprinting in the bunch for the finish line!!!

Organisers can say what they like and get the entrants to sign whatever disclaimers they want but it's the way of the world now. If a group of people decide that THEY are having a race then it's their right to do so whatever authorities say. You only have to look at the fuss over what jerseys are acceptable to wear with traditionalists saying no to WC jerseys and others saying they can wear what they like whenever(even for road racing). With a competative element to sportives(timing, numbers, medals and results) you will always get people assuming it's a race or treating it as a race(usually because they are too scared to race properly or have been dumped out of their first 4th race)

The solution won't come from cycling because we have no control over it. It will come from the public and authorities. Joe Public will get fed up of hundreds of lycra louts slowing them up on their journey to B & Q by five minutes and the authorities will get fed up of scraping cyclists off the bonnets of cars and having to treat them in an overcrowded NHS.