Yet another 'what tyre' thread

EKE_38BPM

I shall very soon be in the market for some new tyres. I usually go for 23mm Gatorskins but I'm seriously considering going for a more 'upmarket' tyre.

I assume the usual cycing trade off of price/weight/longevity apply, so, moving price down to one of the less major factors, what would my Rapha, Castelli, Assos wearing bretheren go for?
Protection from the fairy is pretty important but I want to experience something a little nicer than what I consider the default setting for 23mm tyres (Gatorskins), so what does the hive mind advise?

meanredspider

Why 23mm?

Dunno if you saw my thread where I posted results of my 23 vs 25 testing but, from now on it's 25c all the way for me. Basically 25c Gators were 0.5mph faster than 23c Gators. I also showed that 23c GP4000Ss were 0.5mph faster than 25c Gators. So next year's good weather tyre will be a 25c GP4000S. They aren't as robust as Gators though (no Rapha here but Assos and Castelli )

meanredspider

Here's the thread

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... t=12803505

dhope

Commuting still?
Schwalbe Durano Plus.

Marginally less p* resistance than Marathon Plus.
More pleasant to ride (not that I've used M+ before)

dhope

dhope wrote:

Commuting still?
Schwalbe Durano Plus.

Marginally less p* resistance than Marathon Plus.
More pleasant to ride (not that I've used M+ before)

meanredspider wrote:

So next year's good weather tyre will be a 25c GP4000S. They aren't as robust as Gators though (no Rapha here but Assos and Castelli )

Have them on the road bike at the moment. No complaints at all

UndercoverElephant

Rubino Pro for me, great tyres. Fast, light, grippy, long-lasting and tough. Not that I'm in any way Assos, Rapha or Castelli, you understand; I'm a proper brand-tart, if it doesn't say Aldi, I'm out.

asprilla

dhope wrote:

Commuting still?
Schwalbe Durano Plus.

This although winter bike is going to have 25mm Schwalbe Duranos on.

il_principe

I'd second GP4000s or Michelin ProRace 3's - been running these for a year and half (on the best bike) with just the one p*ncture.

For commuting - feck knows. Used to swear by Rubino Pros, but had P* probs with them and Gator/Ultraskins.

notsoblue

meanredspider wrote:

Why 23mm?

Dunno if you saw my thread where I posted results of my 23 vs 25 testing but, from now on it's 25c all the way for me. Basically 25c Gators were 0.5mph faster than 23c Gators. I also showed that 23c GP4000Ss were 0.5mph faster than 25c Gators. So next year's good weather tyre will be a 25c GP4000S. They aren't as robust as Gators though (no Rapha here but Assos and Castelli )

I'd have thought it would have a lot to do with the type of roads you mostly ride on. High pressure 23s aren't very comfortable if you're on rough bumpy tarmac. But on my commute its quite lovely.

DonDaddyD

4 Seasons on the commuter. 25mm at the back 23 on the front for best combination.

GP4000s on the best bike.

sketchley

meanredspider wrote:

Why 23mm?

Dunno if you saw my thread where I posted results of my 23 vs 25 testing but, from now on it's 25c all the way for me. Basically 25c Gators were 0.5mph faster than 23c Gators. I also showed that 23c GP4000Ss were 0.5mph faster than 25c Gators. So next year's good weather tyre will be a 25c GP4000S. They aren't as robust as Gators though (no Rapha here but Assos and Castelli )

We were talking about this in the pub the other day, it's the reason I need to go up to 28mm on the rear on my bike. Maybe front and rear.

It's a weight thing, thinner tyre, fatter rider means more tyre drop at same pressure and therefore more pressure required to get optimum rolling resistance. In your testing did you run the 23 and 25 at the same pressure? If so the 25 is likely to be quicker due to less drop and therefore lower rolling resistance. But, only to a point, with too much pressure there won't be enough drop and the tyre will bounce more resulting in less traction. However, Eke doesn't weigh a lot (compare to me at least) so 23 might be quicker for him at the same pressure as the 25's would be over inflated.

Good article about this stuff is here http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/TireDrop.pdf linked from here http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html which is also a good read.

stuaff

dhope wrote:

Commuting still?
Schwalbe Durano Plus.

Marginally less p* resistance than Marathon Plus.
More pleasant to ride (not that I've used M+ before)

+1. Got 'em on both the Viner and the Squadra, zero problems with either set.

vorsprung

Bontrager Racelite Hardcase in 25mm
Cheap as chips, good puncture proofness, reasonably fast and grippy
I note with some amusement that Schwalbe make a special fixie tyre called a "skid stop"

meanredspider

Sketchley wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Why 23mm?

Dunno if you saw my thread where I posted results of my 23 vs 25 testing but, from now on it's 25c all the way for me. Basically 25c Gators were 0.5mph faster than 23c Gators. I also showed that 23c GP4000Ss were 0.5mph faster than 25c Gators. So next year's good weather tyre will be a 25c GP4000S. They aren't as robust as Gators though (no Rapha here but Assos and Castelli )

We were talking about this in the pub the other day, it's the reason I need to go up to 28mm on the rear on my bike. Maybe front and rear.

It's a weight thing, thinner tyre, fatter rider means more tyre drop at same pressure and therefore more pressure required to get optimum rolling resistance. In your testing did you run the 23 and 25 at the same pressure? If so the 25 is likely to be quicker due to less drop and therefore lower rolling resistance. But, only to a point, with too much pressure there won't be enough drop and the tyre will bounce more resulting in less traction. However, Eke doesn't weigh a lot (compare to me at least) so 23 might be quicker for him at the same pressure as the 25's would be over inflated.

Good article about this stuff is here http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/TireDrop.pdf linked from here http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html which is also a good read.

I ran them both at 120psi to minimise either of these effects. They were probably a tad hard for the 25s but it demonstrated the point for me at least.

UndercoverElephant

vorsprung wrote:

Bontrager Racelite Hardcase in 25mm
Cheap as chips, good puncture proofness, reasonably fast and grippy

You know, opinions are funny things: Bonty Racelites are the worst tyres I've ever had. They were always a bit squirmy, especially in the wet where I I struggled not to wheel-spin from the lights, round corners they were sketchy and they were pretty slow too.

meanredspider

vorsprung wrote:

Bontrager Racelite Hardcase in 25mm
Cheap as chips, good puncture proofness, reasonably fast and grippy

I hate these. For me at least they were noticeably slower and had poor puncture resistance. I took them off after two weeks and went back to Gators. I keep one of them in the office as a spare just in case of a serious tyre issue on the way in.

meanredspider

UndercoverElephant wrote:

vorsprung wrote:

Bontrager Racelite Hardcase in 25mm
Cheap as chips, good puncture proofness, reasonably fast and grippy

You know, opinions are funny things: Bonty Racelites are the worst tyres I've ever had. They were always a bit squirmy, especially in the wet where I I struggled not to wheel-spin from the lights, round corners they were sketchy and they were pretty slow too.

LOL +1.

Maybe they don't work well the further north you get

sketchley

meanredspider wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Why 23mm?

Dunno if you saw my thread where I posted results of my 23 vs 25 testing but, from now on it's 25c all the way for me. Basically 25c Gators were 0.5mph faster than 23c Gators. I also showed that 23c GP4000Ss were 0.5mph faster than 25c Gators. So next year's good weather tyre will be a 25c GP4000S. They aren't as robust as Gators though (no Rapha here but Assos and Castelli )

We were talking about this in the pub the other day, it's the reason I need to go up to 28mm on the rear on my bike. Maybe front and rear.

It's a weight thing, thinner tyre, fatter rider means more tyre drop at same pressure and therefore more pressure required to get optimum rolling resistance. In your testing did you run the 23 and 25 at the same pressure? If so the 25 is likely to be quicker due to less drop and therefore lower rolling resistance. But, only to a point, with too much pressure there won't be enough drop and the tyre will bounce more resulting in less traction. However, Eke doesn't weigh a lot (compare to me at least) so 23 might be quicker for him at the same pressure as the 25's would be over inflated.

Good article about this stuff is here http://www.bikequarterly.com/images/TireDrop.pdf linked from here http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html which is also a good read.

I ran them both at 120psi to minimise either of these effects. They were probably a tad hard for the 25s but it demonstrated the point for me at least.

But then despite best intentions you where not comparing like for like, if you where running the 25 at 120psi the 23 would need to be nearer 140psi for like for like comparison. Or for the 23mm at 120psi the 25 would need to be a bit over 100psi. The reason why the 25s are quicker for you is almost certainly your weight leading to the correct tyre drop on 25s at that pressure and too much tire drop on the 23 as they are not pumped up enough. From the link above 120psi on 25mm means your optimum rear wheel weight is around 60kgs assuming a road bike with 35/65 weight distribution front to rear then this would make you around 92kgs or about 14.5 stone. Is this correct?

HamishD

I've got Bonty Race X Lite Hardcases (25s) at the moment. Super comfy but not very fast. Puncture proof so far. 2 for 25 notes, can't go wrong really for the commute.

Otherwise, check out Vredestein Quattros if you fancy something different - excellent all round tyres.

meanredspider

Sketchley wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I ran them both at 120psi to minimise either of these effects. They were probably a tad hard for the 25s but it demonstrated the point for me at least.

But then despite best intentions you where not comparing like for like, if you where running the 25 at 120psi the 23 would need to be nearer 140psi for like for like comparison. Or for the 23mm at 120psi the 25 would need to be a bit over 100psi. The reason why the 25s are quicker for you is almost certainly your weight leading to the correct tyre drop on 25s at that pressure and too much tire drop on the 23 as they are not pumped up enough. From the link above 120psi on 25mm means your optimum rear wheel weight is around 60kgs assuming a road bike with 45/65 weight distribution front to rear then this would make you around 92kgs or about 14.5 stone. Is this correct?

Except that 140psi would have exceeded the tyre's stated maximum pressure. So I ran them both at the max pressure (in fact I typically ran the 25 slightly softer) What I was aiming to do was to work out what was best for me.

And, yes, the only reason why a 25 might be faster than a 23 is the deformation. But if the pressure required is both higher than the stated maximum and gives a ride as hard as nails, it kinda defeats the point of testing at that level. Hence 120 psi.

sketchley

meanredspider wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I ran them both at 120psi to minimise either of these effects. They were probably a tad hard for the 25s but it demonstrated the point for me at least.

But then despite best intentions you where not comparing like for like, if you where running the 25 at 120psi the 23 would need to be nearer 140psi for like for like comparison. Or for the 23mm at 120psi the 25 would need to be a bit over 100psi. The reason why the 25s are quicker for you is almost certainly your weight leading to the correct tyre drop on 25s at that pressure and too much tire drop on the 23 as they are not pumped up enough. From the link above 120psi on 25mm means your optimum rear wheel weight is around 60kgs assuming a road bike with 45/65 weight distribution front to rear then this would make you around 92kgs or about 14.5 stone. Is this correct?

Except that 140psi would have exceeded the tyre's stated maximum pressure. So I ran them both at the max pressure (in fact I typically ran the 25 slightly softer) What I was aiming to do was to work out what was best for me.

And, yes, the only reason why a 25 might be faster than a 23 is the deformation. But if the pressure required is both higher than the stated maximum and gives a ride as hard as nails, it kinda defeats the point of testing at that level. Hence 120 psi.

I have same problem, currently run back tyre (25mm) at 130psi, need to order a pair of 28s.

meanredspider

Was just looking at the chart in the first link. Suggests that the rear tyre load on my bike is 55kg which puts 25s at 110psi and 23 at 130psi for the REAR tyre only. Both fronts are over inflated. So in my test I'm maybe 10 psi light on one 23mm tyre. TBH I don't think that will equate to the difference I saw in speeds

sketchley

meanredspider wrote:

Was just looking at the chart in the first link. Suggests that the rear tyre load on my bike is 55kg which puts 25s at 110psi and 23 at 130psi for the REAR tyre only. Both fronts are over inflated. So in my test I'm maybe 10 psi light on one 23mm tyre. TBH I don't think that will equate to the difference I saw in speeds

The drop in the rear on the 23 through being under inflated almost certainly have slowed you down. The over inflation on the 25 if the road is smooth may have improved things. Have a look at Sheldon's article (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tires.html#pressure) who has this to say on over inflation "An overinflated tire will have slightly less rolling resistance if the surface is very smooth.." and this on under "An underinflated tire will have more rolling resistance."

So that maybe part of the reason too.

Also as per Sheldon's article the 23 might or bean a 22 and the 25 a 24, see http://www.sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html and the dishonesty section.

Torvid

meanredspider wrote:

Was just looking at the chart in the first link. Suggests that the rear tyre load on my bike is 55kg which puts 25s at 110psi and 23 at 130psi for the REAR tyre only. Both fronts are over inflated. So in my test I'm maybe 10 psi light on one 23mm tyre. TBH I don't think that will equate to the difference I saw in speeds

either the last 3 sets of scales I have used are wrong or that tables complete crap, at the presure it recogmends I get snake bites.

sketchley

Torvid wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Was just looking at the chart in the first link. Suggests that the rear tyre load on my bike is 55kg which puts 25s at 110psi and 23 at 130psi for the REAR tyre only. Both fronts are over inflated. So in my test I'm maybe 10 psi light on one 23mm tyre. TBH I don't think that will equate to the difference I saw in speeds

either the last 3 sets of scales I have used are wrong or that tables complete crap, at the presure it recogmends I get snake bites.

Too low I guess? Tables not wrong, probably means wrong size tyre. If too low you need a smaller one to run a higher pressure......

Torvid

i'm running 23s at 168lbs 40/60 split puts the front tyre at 70psi rear at 100psi whilst 100 is just about okay the 70 is way off i usually run at 100 front 120 rear.

sketchley

Torvid wrote:

i'm running 23s at 168lbs 40/60 split puts the front tyre at 70psi rear at 100psi whilst 100 is just about okay the 70 is way off i usually run at 100 front 120 rear.

First over inflation on smooth roads can reduce rolling resistance (see Sheldon). Also at you weight the cart show you could run smaller tyres at same pressure. Smaller tyre = less rotating weight = quicker. Just a thought.

Torvid

This one is more like i would expect...

Rider Weight (pounds)  Road Tire Pressure (psi)  Off-Road Tire Pressure (psi)  
           110                95-105             35-38  
           140               105-115             37-40  
           170               110-120             40-43  
           200               120-130             42-45  
           230               125-135             45-48

Thats for 23c and 2" tyres.

Pokerface

Ultermo DD - more robust than the ZX (better for commuting) but still speedy.

vorsprung

UndercoverElephant wrote:

vorsprung wrote:

Bontrager Racelite Hardcase in 25mm
Cheap as chips, good puncture proofness, reasonably fast and grippy

You know, opinions are funny things: Bonty Racelites are the worst tyres I've ever had. They were always a bit squirmy, especially in the wet where I I struggled not to wheel-spin from the lights, round corners they were sketchy and they were pretty slow too.

You are describing an Ultragatorskin there

Incidently I just remembered what tyres I was using before the Hardcases. Panaracer Stratius Elite. They were pretty good, I got them cheap from Ribble. In the bizarre size of 26mm

Wrath Rob

Got 25mm 4000s on the good bike. When the current 23mm Gatorskins wear out on the commuter I'll be changing it to run those too. Unfortunately at the rate the Gator's are going, it will be some time in 2013.