is road biking becoming too dangerous.

mcj78

Redhog14 wrote:

amaferanga wrote:

Keith1983 wrote:

mcj78 wrote:

I'd certainly welcome a law which primarily apportioned blame on the vehicle driver in a collision with a cyclist,

I appreciate that I've only quoted a small part of your post but I think this way of thinking is very dangerous.....

Isn't this the way it works in Germany (for example)?

Presuming that the motorist is at fault unless they can prove otherwise seems like a good idea to me. I'm tired of motorists passing me with inches to spare every week and then having the cheek to start gesticulating that I should be cycling in the gutter (i.e. they deliberately passed me way too close to teach me a lesson because they think I'm in the wrong place). We need a change in the law or something in this country to make motorists actually remember their responsibilities cos as it is too many just don't give a sh*t about anyone but themselves.

I was wondering the other day actually - why don't cars have black boxes? It'd certainly make determining the cause of 'accidents' a whole lot easier....

There already exists a precendent in so far as if you run into the back of another car then it is assumed you are at fault unless you can prove otherwise. Seems to be acceptable

Bingo - however i'm sure somebody somewhere sometime has swerved infront of another car, then hammered on the anchors to cause a crash & get a few quid for a spurious whiplash claim though - thus rendering this law the new dumbest dumb law... in the world... ever...

Monty Dog

Whilst not to say that there isn't an inherent risk to cycling, but there was a study undertaken a number of years ago that even when including the risk of fatal / serious injury, the long-terms benefits of cycling in terms of life-expectancy were better than for the general population. I guess that answer doesn't wash much with your nearest and dearest?

DrKJM

Isn't there a law in France, and one proposed in California, providing for a minimum passing distance for a car overtaking a cyclist of about 3 feet. If that were in place then prosecutions would be more likely, bad drivers would be given the guidance they need, and good drivers could carry on as they are without fear.

mcj78

Monty Dog wrote:

Whilst not to say that there isn't an inherent risk to cycling, but there was a study undertaken a number of years ago that even when including the risk of fatal / serious injury, the long-terms benefits of cycling in terms of life-expectancy were better than for the general population. I guess that answer doesn't wash much with your nearest and dearest?

It does if whilst explaining this, you grab a bottle of beer & nonchalantly open it with one of your chiselled calves of steel 8)

Mr Bungle

Pigtail wrote:

I'm really struggling with how you come to this - even though I have an inclination at times to do it myself!

Do you stop driving when a car driver gets killed?

Do you stop walking when a pedsetrian gets killed?

If not - why on earth is cycling different?

The answer to this is simple - its different because you are sharing the same space as something 8 times the size, rock hard, and travelling at speed, also the perosn driving is protected so will have a totally different confidence level.

I always head off to roads which are quieter, and am confident when I am there Ill be OK.
yester day I was almsot home and got to a roundabout whre someone nearly knocked me off, I was coming form the right, she looked straight at me and drove into my path, then gave me the bird!!! :evil: could not beleive it.

So no matter how safe the main roads you ride on, you have to get there which is probably the most dangerous bit.

shouldbeinbed

Pigtail wrote:

I'm really struggling with how you come to this - even though I have an inclination at times to do it myself!

Do you stop driving when a car driver gets killed?

Do you stop walking when a pedsetrian gets killed?

If not - why on earth is cycling different?

+ 1 & I was knocked off on Tuesday evening.

hmbadger

surreyxc wrote:

A great website: http://www.crashmap.co.uk/

Shows all the best places to play, rather encouraging as in my area last year there was under 70 severe or fatal accidents which is amazing considering all the tools out there.

Certainly is a great site. Sobering however to look at some of the roads I go on - A6 out of Stockport (not at busy times mind), Cat and Fiddle, Long Hill... I did know that that triangle of roads were among the worst in the country. Far too many black markers there.

redvision

DrKJM wrote:

Isn't there a law in France, and one proposed in California, providing for a minimum passing distance for a car overtaking a cyclist of about 3 feet. If that were in place then prosecutions would be more likely, bad drivers would be given the guidance they need, and good drivers could carry on as they are without fear.

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/3 ... nia-30044/


I think this is a great discussion/debate for a problem which im sure we all wish didnt exist.

fact is there are more cyclists being injured following collisions with motorists. whether this is down to more motorists driving without due care and attention, or the increase in cyclists on the road is open for debate. but the one thing i will say is that a cyclist killed cant defend himself, and the motorist is always going to deny responsibility.

i love top gear but i do feel clarkson is causing a problem by his insistance that cyclists have no place on the road. and lets face it, he is pretty much worshipped by thousands of motorists.

what i would like to see is every new driver taking some kind of cycling test as well. i feel that until drivers experience what its like riding on the main road they will never understand the fears we all have. sadly i cant see this happening.

RoadyForever

DrKJM wrote:

Isn't there a law in France, and one proposed in California, providing for a minimum passing distance for a car overtaking a cyclist of about 3 feet. If that were in place then prosecutions would be more likely, bad drivers would be given the guidance they need, and good drivers could carry on as they are without fear.

This is a good idea, as well as car drivers being liable by default.

I think education is needed. Just today I was giving a mate a lift to pick up his car from the garage. Coming up to a roundabout (and turning right) a cyclist infront of me took the lane. My buddy (who knows I am a keen cyclist) commented "How much space does this guy need?", I said "what he is doing is textbook, I'd do the same". He had a confused look, then I explained "If I cut in on the right and another car cuts in on the left, if anyone makes a mistake that guys goes to A&E".

People just do not understand how to drive along side bikes, the government needs to spend some money on an awareness campaign.

EV!lution

I drive and cycle and can see both sides to this,
I think the guys wearing Lycra and respect the road and laws are the minority in these accidents,
But people I see going to work for 6am with no lights helmet jumping from path to road jumping redlights while listening to their iPods I see alot more of these guys then bad drivers

Don't get me wrong I love cycling but we are all tied to the same brush

lemoncurd

EV!lution wrote:

tied to the same brush

Or "tarred with the same brush"? :?

sloppyschleckonds

lemoncurd wrote:

EV!lution wrote:

tied to the same brush

Or "tarred with the same brush"? :?

Is is Basil?

lemoncurd

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

lemoncurd wrote:

EV!lution wrote:

tied to the same brush

Or "tarred with the same brush"? :?

Is is Basil?

You are correct. All cyclists are tied to Basil Brush.

Pigtail

Mr Bungle wrote:

Pigtail wrote:

I'm really struggling with how you come to this - even though I have an inclination at times to do it myself!

Do you stop driving when a car driver gets killed?

Do you stop walking when a pedsetrian gets killed?

If not - why on earth is cycling different?

The answer to this is simple - its different because you are sharing the same space as something 8 times the size, rock hard, and travelling at speed, also the perosn driving is protected so will have a totally different confidence level.

I always head off to roads which are quieter, and am confident when I am there Ill be OK.
yester day I was almsot home and got to a roundabout whre someone nearly knocked me off, I was coming form the right, she looked straight at me and drove into my path, then gave me the bird!!! :evil: could not beleive it.

So no matter how safe the main roads you ride on, you have to get there which is probably the most dangerous bit.

As a driver you are also sharing the same space as something 8 times your size. Have you never eyeballed the wheel of an HGV whilst sitting in a car? How much protection will your car give you against one of them?

If you drive in excess of 15,000 work miles a year that brings you up to about the 3rd most dangerous profession in Britain.

The differences are not so much in the risks involved, but in the perception of risk.

Many people are afraid of flying - but will quite happily jump in a car, which is many times more dangerous.

stratblue

I think the best question to ask is how many people have died from not cycling this year?

oldhairylegs

Done quite a bit of cycling in Europe and the difference in attitude from drivers to that in the UK is always really clear. They give you time, space and respect as a fellow road user.

As many have said, the law is different over there - if a driver is involved in a crash with a cyclist then they have to prove they were not to blame.

Coincidence? I think not.

Nothing will change here unless there is a change in our primary legislation and the car lobby is too powerful for that to happen.

pottssteve

In 2009 104 cyclists died in the UK whilst riding. This is around the same number of people who die falling out of bed each year. Obviously, as a proportion the cycling deaths are higher, but cycling is perhaps more dangerous than laying in bed.

Here in the Netherlands there is a presumption that in a collision between a cyclist and a car, lorry etc, the driver, not the cyclist is at fault. This appears to have led to many casual riders (not lycra-wearers) abdicating responsibility and riding very irresponsibly.

Steve

taz3611

Friday last week I was driving. I got to a T junction to turn left and positioned the car correctly to the left of the road. I stopped and looked right and left. I started to pull out having seen no hazards. There was an old woman on a shopper bike 50 metres away down the road to the right moving slowly. As I started to move away from the junction I was forced to stop due to a car approaching from the left. I stopped at an oblique angle, across the junction. I waited for the car to pass and was just about to move off when there was a huge bang to my car. I looked around and saw the female cyclist lying in the road. She had ridden into the side of my car. I got out and went to her when she said, "Didn't you see me?". I explained that I had but asked if she had seen me as she had ridden into me. She said, "But it's your fault, you're in the car".

forward_loop

turning left out of a T- Junction, I'm not sure why you would have been forced to stop mid junction by a car approaching from the the left - at 50m perhaps the old lady on her shopper was going a bit faster than you thought..

People say some odd things immediately after an accident - no doubt she was in shock.

If you were cycling and had arrived at that T-Junction - and noticed a slow vehicle (perhaps a tractor) arriving from the right, would you have still pulled out and been "forced to top mid junction" - having "seen no hazards"

Not apportioning blame and just making a general comment - but I am sure that for some years there has been an advert on the television LOOK, LOOK, Then LOOK again - with a motorbike doing something very similar to your old lady on the shopper

ooermissus

1 death or serious injury for every 1.15m miles cycled in the UK.

DrKJM

ooermissus wrote:

1 death or serious injury for every 1.15m miles cycled in the UK.

But 1 death per 59 million car miles driven (and that's ALL road deaths).

I drive much more than I cycle and I like to think I'm considerate to cyclists (and horseriders, and pedestrians and...). I'd still welcome some legislation aimed at making drivers (me as well as everyone else) share the road more effectively. I ride with a couple of friends and am regularly on the receiving end of abuse or subjected to dangerous driving which only good fortune has prevented becoming a serious injury. The temptation to pursue and educate is often strong - but always so far resisted. It would be very much better if the education was delivered by the authorities and anchored to a big bill saying 'this is illegal and if you breach it you'll pay a fine and get three points". A good model is the mobile phone legislation. It's not eradicated phone use whilst driving but it certainly seems to have reduced it.

Thebigbee

OP - thanks for posting this on a road BEGINNERS forum.

Makes me wonder why I started cycling and I see it being incredibly helpful for people who do want to take up road cycling!

It must really encourage newbies to road cycling.

I have seen a site that your post may be better off being posted on, I don't know.

Iamawhingingchickencryingbabymisery.com

Please let me know if that helps.

If it does could you please visit

Icouldntgiveatossinyourmoronicmiserygetalife.com

Thanks

ooermissus

Thebigbee wrote:

OP - thanks for posting this on a road BEGINNERS forum.

Makes me wonder why I started cycling and I see it being incredibly helpful for people who do want to take up road cycling!

It must really encourage newbies to road cycling.

I have seen a site that your post may be better off being posted on, I don't know.

Iamawhingingchickencryingbabymisery.com

Please let me know if that helps.

If it does could you please visit

Icouldntgiveatossinyourmoronicmiserygetalife.com

Thanks

:shock:

elmsallmissile

It has got massivly worse in the 40 odd years I've been cycling, in fact last tuesday I was T-boned by a "Lady" driver who pulled out of a junction onto the "A" road dual carrigeway I was riding on, she hit me on the left leg from behind/side buckling both wheels and making me re-evaluate my fragile mortality.

I believe apart from the obvious lack of consideration for any other road user, is the fact that driving too close too fast has become the accepted "norm".

I was watching the Emergency bikers programme on TV the other day and was a little shocked when a Police officer stopped and lectured a scooter rider on the wisdom of riding (perfectly legally) well apart from the fact that his "L" plate had dropped off, on a "fast" road.

The "problem" apparently was that his lack of speed was "forcing" vehicles to overtake dangerously close!

The real problem, which the Police can or will not enforce, is that drivers are not looking far enough ahead, and are therefore aproaching slower vehicles at a rate of knots where they can not, or will not take appropriate evasive action, this is compounded by the fact that virtually all the vehicles in lane 2 are travelling far too close together making a safe overtake from lane 1 a virtual impossibility.

If there was a concerted effort to enforce the 2 second rule most of the roads problems would be solved at a stroke, including traffic flow, as vehicles would be able to merge easier.

This problem has nothing at all to do with congested roads, as on any early morning ride when there is hardly any traffic, you get miles of clear road then four or five cars come barrelling along at 60 mph 2 feet apart, they only THINK they can stop when anything goes wrong!

mcj78

Thebigbee wrote:

OP - thanks for posting this on a road BEGINNERS forum.

Makes me wonder why I started cycling and I see it being incredibly helpful for people who do want to take up road cycling!

It must really encourage newbies to road cycling.

I have seen a site that your post may be better off being posted on, I don't know.

Iamawhingingchickencryingbabymisery.com

Please let me know if that helps.

If it does could you please visit

Icouldntgiveatossinyourmoronicmiserygetalife.com

Thanks

WishIwasthisdrunkat2pmonaFriday.com?

petemadoc

oldhairylegs wrote:

Done quite a bit of cycling in Europe and the difference in attitude from drivers to that in the UK is always really clear. They give you time, space and respect as a fellow road user.

As many have said, the law is different over there - if a driver is involved in a crash with a cyclist then they have to prove they were not to blame.

Coincidence? I think not.

Nothing will change here unless there is a change in our primary legislation and the car lobby is too powerful for that to happen.

^

This

I have experience of riding in France and Belgium. It's incredible the difference in driver attitudes compared to the UK. I'd go as far to say as their general driving is better and more patient than ours.

Thebigbee

mcj78 wrote:

Thebigbee wrote:

OP - thanks for posting this on a road BEGINNERS forum.

Makes me wonder why I started cycling and I see it being incredibly helpful for people who do want to take up road cycling!

It must really encourage newbies to road cycling.

I have seen a site that your post may be better off being posted on, I don't know.

Iamawhingingchickencryingbabymisery.com

Please let me know if that helps.

If it does could you please visit

Icouldntgiveatossinyourmoronicmiserygetalife.com

Thanks

WishIwasthisdrunkat2pmonaFriday.com?

You need to visit

Iwishiwashalfasfunnybutimnotinanywaybutitryanditryveryveryhard.com

You know those little birds, that people keep and lay eggs. I think the name of them begins with q.

That's you that is. Change a letter though - hope you can work it out though.

I will let you know. As I am so drunk - lol! You are an oversized, massive, quail!!

mcj78

Thebigbee wrote:

mcj78 wrote:

Thebigbee wrote:

OP - thanks for posting this on a road BEGINNERS forum.

Makes me wonder why I started cycling and I see it being incredibly helpful for people who do want to take up road cycling!

It must really encourage newbies to road cycling.

I have seen a site that your post may be better off being posted on, I don't know.

Iamawhingingchickencryingbabymisery.com

Please let me know if that helps.

If it does could you please visit

Icouldntgiveatossinyourmoronicmiserygetalife.com

Thanks

WishIwasthisdrunkat2pmonaFriday.com?

You need to visit

Iwishiwashalfasfunnybutimnotinanywaybutitryanditryveryveryhard.com

You know those little birds, that people keep and lay eggs. I think the name of them begins with q.

That's you that is. Change a letter though - hope you can work it out though.

I will let you know. As I am so drunk - lol! You are an oversized, massive, quail!!

Seriously, what did you expect? You could have posted a reasoned, coherent argument like most people here have - you could even thought about it for more than 5 seconds & tried to include some witty left-field humour to back up your point (usually goes down well) instead, you chose a rather strange attempt at humour (I think) & just came across slightly unhinged. Or just plain old mental. Not sure which.

I take back the drunk comment though, it was slightly harsh & besides - that magic marker moustache & sideburns will never fool anyone.

Jx