An Engineering Question

Cleat Eastwood

Ok this has been bugging me for some time.

I was watching How it's Made on tele, similar to this only this has an american voiceover

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCrm8WbJKqg

And what I dont get is who makes the machines that do that intricate work? I mean does the dart manufacturer (in the example above) go to an engineering firm and say 'automate my dart making" or does an engineer see an application for his design.

Also how many attempts does an engineer have at perfecting the machinery cos surely he'd have to have some understanding of what is being produced, and they couldnt make a whole factory of machinery only to find that it doesnt work.

The prog has loads of examples liek crayon making, or gobstopper making, yet all the machinery seems amazingly syncopated.

MattC59

In the case of the dart manufacture, it's a pretty simple procedure of machining metal bar stock. The basic machine could be used to manufacture many items, it's the program controlling the depth of cuts, the position of the bar, the position of the tools etc which changes. The machine will have been customised to an extent for the application, but not hugely.

A dart is pretty much a dart. You could make one with a standard manual lathe. The machines will have been developed over the years as technology improves.

Monty Dog

That's a pretty old machine - probably 40-50 years old by the look of it.

My company have just installed a new machining centre that has a dimensional accuracy of 30 microns over 3 metres - it is the most accurate machine of it's type in the world and cost £6m. It uses a lot of lasers and fancy software to control the dimensional accuracy as well as sitting in a temperature controlled building.

Design of the machine depends on what you want to make and the dimensional accuracy - it's a lot easier if you don't need high dimensional tolerances. 0.3mm is a general machining tolerance whereas once you get below 100 microns is gets expensive.

In terms of machine design, there's many years of experience and in terms of making them, there will be lots of grinding and honing to get the parts as near to perfection and an accurate fit.

SmellTheGlove

CAD and simulations help the imagination realise so many things; for mind-boggling and sometimes seemingly pointless complexity, have a look at pharmaceutical production lines. Not that "tweaking" will ever be ruled out of course.

The first lathe shown in the dart video is a Swiss auto by the way; all the tool sequencing and changing achieved mechanically by cams and rollers, no NC. Sub-zero cool IMO. But then I'm a bit of a geek that way.

meanredspider

Us engineers are very clever - that's all I need to say

PedalPedant

It's fairly incredible what can be machined now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDPA06D1r_8

PP

MattC59

PedalPedant wrote:

It's fairly incredible what can be machined now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDPA06D1r_8

PP

That's quite something !!
My dad worked at the cutting edge (no pun intended ) of the machine tool industry, for a company which makes the cutting tools. (He retired last year) They did a lot of prototyping for the aerospace industry, and some of the things they machined were incredible.

smurfylicious

The main body of a dart can be made on any turning machine (i.e. a lathe). The slots for the fins would have to be cut with some kind of slitting saw. However, having said that, all but the most expensive darts are probably made by a much cheaper method than machining (die casting perhaps?). Modern machines can be highly automated with tool changers and blank loading. An operator can load a machine with blanks and sharp tools and leave it to produce 1000s of products. It's known as CNC machining.

The dart example you give has its own special manufacturing problems though. Tungsten is extremely hard and difficult to machine. Grinding is probably one of the few methods that would work on Tungsten. EDM would be another option but is rather expensive.

Cleat Eastwood

PedalPedant wrote:

It's fairly incredible what can be machined now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDPA06D1r_8

PP

That is amazing. So if our dartman wanted to make another product where would he go to change his machines. I mean are there like design/engineering places that would do machine designs specifically for your company? It's one of the subjects I wish I'd paid more attention to at school.

Also who would decide what material to use (tungsten etc), does the engineer have any input?

Dunk_911

Interesting thread. My work is heavily involved in this area as I am what is known as a CAD designer. I use the computer programs which plot the points for the CNC machine or machinist to cut to.

As for the machines, you do not change your machines, it is more of a case of one machine fits all. (depending on the size of the part you are machining or turning). Though for mass production as seen in the darts video the machines are very specialised but still programmable.

here is a website with some cool machining/ lathing stuff on it http://www.cnccookbook.com/

And here is a list of pictures of some cool old machines from the same website; http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCHallOfFame.html

people like this will make your design http://www.emachineshop.com/ but at work we use these guys; http://www.derbyracingservices.co.uk/

meanredspider

Whilst CNC machines are impressive, I think th custom-made stuff is in another league. Watching a machine assemble empty toothpaste tubes at 300 a minute is truly fantastic.

The components we manufacture & assemble have extremely critical dimensions (an error in which could theoretically cause a patient death) and yet we produce 4 billion+ a year.

rick_chasey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82w_r2D1Ooo

JohnnyAllez

Job I do (long-bed CNC machining) has dimensional tolerance of +0.13 / -0.08 mm over 25 mtr length.

MichaelW

Who makes the machines?
Mostly it is medium sized, family-owned companies in Germany who make the machine tools that factories in China and elsewhere use to make stuff. That is why the German economy is in reasonable shape and ours sucks.

MattC59

MichaelW wrote:

Who makes the machines?
Mostly it is medium sized, family-owned companies in Germany who make the machine tools that factories in China and elsewhere use to make stuff. That is why the German economy is in reasonable shape and ours sucks.

Really ?
DMG / Mori Seiki / Hitachi Seiki are far from medium sized or family owned, and the big boys in the machine tool manufacturing market are Iscar (Israeli), Seco (Swedish) and Sandvik (Swedish)

smurfylicious

MichaelW wrote:

Who makes the machines?
Mostly it is medium sized, family-owned companies in Germany who make the machine tools that factories in China and elsewhere use to make stuff. That is why the German economy is in reasonable shape and ours sucks.

There's just a few left in the UK such as Dean, Smith and Grace (names don't get much more 'English' than that!), for example, who are based in Keighley, West Yorkshire

http://www.deansmithandgrace.co.uk/

The UK has given away a lot in recent years, often for next to nothing. Does anyone remember the Rover scandal? After the Chinese acquired Rover they didn't have all the knowledge in house to actually produce the Rover designs themselves in China. So they hired a small number of key ex-Rover employees. If I'd been made redundant when Rover was sold I think I would've rather stayed on the dole than give them the last bit of knowledge they needed to produce Rover designs for pennies in China.

The situation with our Universities is similar. Every year China sends huge numbers of students on UG and PG courses to learn how to do everything. The only problem for China is that they are running out of people to sell cheap products to as economies around the world are crashing and a large proportion of Chinese people still live below the poverty line, so there is no internal market. Oh well, never mind.

SmellTheGlove

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

Also who would decide what material to use (tungsten etc), does the engineer have any input?

Yes he does, and behind the scenes he'll fight for every miniscule percentage of the minor alloying elements too, just so fat-walleted buggers can enjoy their scandium frames or whatever the product may be.

Outside of work though, we're mostly normal and enjoy a pint (but only if the glass is nicely made of course)

MichaelW

MattC59 wrote:

MichaelW wrote:

Who makes the machines?
Mostly it is medium sized, family-owned companies in Germany who make the machine tools that factories in China and elsewhere use to make stuff. That is why the German economy is in reasonable shape and ours sucks.

Really ?
DMG / Mori Seiki / Hitachi Seiki are far from medium sized or family owned, and the big boys in the machine tool manufacturing market are Iscar (Israeli), Seco (Swedish) and Sandvik (Swedish)

Ref
Lots of small niche companies making whole machines and special components for them.

snailracer

smurfylicious wrote:

The UK has given away a lot in recent years, often for next to nothing. Does anyone remember the Rover scandal? After the Chinese acquired Rover they didn't have all the knowledge in house to actually produce the Rover designs themselves in China. So they hired a small number of key ex-Rover employees. If I'd been made redundant when Rover was sold I think I would've rather stayed on the dole than give them the last bit of knowledge they needed to produce Rover designs for pennies in China...

How does making Rovers in China affect redundant Rover workers in the UK? I can't see it does, Rover was already dead when the Chinese bought it.

smurfylicious wrote:

...The situation with our Universities is similar. Every year China sends huge numbers of students on UG and PG courses to learn how to do everything...

If they didn't come here, they would have spent their money at foreign universities anyway.

smurfylicious wrote:

...The only problem for China is that they are running out of people to sell cheap products to as economies around the world are crashing and a large proportion of Chinese people still live below the poverty line, so there is no internal market. Oh well, never mind.

No internal market in China? All the carmakers and luxury goods brands are making MORE money despite being in the worst worldwide economic depression since the 1930's - all due to increased demand from the developing economies, principally China.

MattC59

MichaelW wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

MichaelW wrote:

Who makes the machines?
Mostly it is medium sized, family-owned companies in Germany who make the machine tools that factories in China and elsewhere use to make stuff. That is why the German economy is in reasonable shape and ours sucks.

Really ?
DMG / Mori Seiki / Hitachi Seiki are far from medium sized or family owned, and the big boys in the machine tool manufacturing market are Iscar (Israeli), Seco (Swedish) and Sandvik (Swedish)

Ref
Lots of small niche companies making whole machines and special components for them.

Fair enough although I find it a little hard to believe that these small companies hold more of the market than the market leaders. I suppose that when you group them all together they might.

Eitherr way, you have to smile at the name of the source of the article "Wang Weiwei"
Childish, I know

redjeepǃ

I;ve just got back a few minutes ago from the Hannover EMO Trade Fair which is pretty much the largest Trade fair around for the machine tools industry. It's certainly the largest in Europe and to give you an idea it's spread across 13 or 14 'halls' each about the size of the NEC. It was absolutely packed out with exhibitors and vistors which in itself must show something. Most of the companies I spoke to said how bouyant trade was at the moment.

All of the big companies such as DMG, Sandvik, Fanuc were there, with huge stands and working machinery that must of cost tens if not hundreds of thousands to ship, install and run for the week. and some of their stands would put a U2 show to shame (how about a string quartet of drop dead gorgeous female musicians anybody ?) ! But yes there were quite a lot of UK companies, mostly in specialist niches like metrology.
There were however huge numbers of Chinese and Taiwanese companies there as well, competing mostly on cost.

smurfylicious

snailracer wrote:

smurfylicious wrote:

The UK has given away a lot in recent years, often for next to nothing. Does anyone remember the Rover scandal? After the Chinese acquired Rover they didn't have all the knowledge in house to actually produce the Rover designs themselves in China. So they hired a small number of key ex-Rover employees. If I'd been made redundant when Rover was sold I think I would've rather stayed on the dole than give them the last bit of knowledge they needed to produce Rover designs for pennies in China...

How does making Rovers in China affect redundant Rover workers in the UK? I can't see it does, Rover was already dead when the Chinese bought it.

smurfylicious wrote:

...The situation with our Universities is similar. Every year China sends huge numbers of students on UG and PG courses to learn how to do everything...

If they didn't come here, they would have spent their money at foreign universities anyway.

My opinion is quite simple on these matters and it is this:

I do not like to see intellectual property, which has been built up over many years, given away to China in the blink of an eye. If China thinks they can cut it in the International markets they should carry out their own Research and Development, instead of just copying other peoples work and relying on a low production cost to compete against other manufacturers. I've even read that they're proud of 'their' achievements. How much more delusional can they get?

A few examples:

1. Chinese trainmakers copying the designs of Kawasaki (Japanese train maker)
2. Chinese car manufacturer creating the Chery QQ, which is a blatant clone of the Daewoo Matiz (a car that was designed and engineered in Worthing, England)

snailracer wrote:

smurfylicious wrote:

The only problem for China is that they are running out of people to sell cheap products to as economies around the world are crashing and a large proportion of Chinese people still live below the poverty line, so there is no internal market. Oh well, never mind.

No internal market in China? All the carmakers and luxury goods brands are making MORE money despite being in the worst worldwide economic depression since the 1930's - all due to increased demand from the developing economies, principally China.

Yes, the (richest) Chinese are still buying EU products, but that was not my point. What I said was that China has almost saturated the domestic and international market for it's own industrial output.

proto

MattC59 wrote:

DMG / Mori Seiki / Hitachi Seiki are far from medium sized or family owned, and the big boys in the machine tool manufacturing market are Iscar (Israeli), Seco (Swedish) and Sandvik (Swedish)

Sandvik own Seco (I think). Sandvik are world leaders in tooling, but in the US Kennametal are huge, likewise in Japan, Mitsubishi.

Hitachi Seiki have gone bust, absorbed in Mori Seiki. Shame, as they made brilliant kit. I still own a 25 year old Hitec 20 which is still holding limits of 10 microns.

Don't laugh at my website, it's hopelsessly out of date and is up for a very serious rebuild. it makes me cringe every time I look at it, coding errors, typos, dodgy clock/calender etc. Arghhhhh!

www.prototype-productions.co.uk

Our Kia lathes have given brilliant service, but disappointed with new UK agent. Next machine I buy is likely to e a Doosan, lathe with live tooling, C axis etc.

PS now you can see where I can my moniker from

snailracer

Double post deleted.

neiltb

Part of China's benefit was a lack of foresight by our manufacturers into improving production processes at an adequate rate. The factory I work in, high tech stuff (soup) is 80 years old and looks it. We have updated controls and added some automation but the new part of the plant produces just as much but with a quarter of the staff.

it's taken management nearly 10 years to see the benefit. China has a workforce that will work for 5% of our wages and you build a brand new facility with all the bells and whistles.

We could be competitive, there would just have to be less workers to do the job.

SmellTheGlove

proto wrote:

PS now you can see where I can my moniker from

Yes proto, I reckon you are indeed "The Prisoner" - not a number, a human being...

snailracer

smurfylicious wrote:

...

My opinion is quite simple on these matters and it is this:

I do not like to see intellectual property, which has been built up over many years, given away to China in the blink of an eye....

Your opinion is too simplistic. Intellectual property is bought and sold, just like any other commodity. Rover's remaining IP was sold for what it was worth, which was almost nothing, and Rover didn't fail because of Chinese competition - the UK had lost its mass-manufacturing base long before China came onto the modern scene.

smurfylicious wrote:

...If China thinks they can cut it in the International markets they should carry out their own Research and Development, instead of just copying other peoples work and relying on a low production cost to compete against other manufacturers....

The Chinese copycats exist at the margin of profitability and legal tolerance and are actually quite small players in the world market - how often do YOU buy counterfeit Chinese products?

At present, China hardly needs to copy anything - western companies seek out and present their designs to low cost Chinese manufacturers, who manufacture at an affordable price which us westerners can't get enough of - everybody wins.

China's R & D, patent and scientific paper output is now second only to that of the US - you can't really claim they are just brainless copycats.

smurfylicious wrote:

... I've even read that they're proud of 'their' achievements. How much more delusional can they get?

A few examples:

1. Chinese trainmakers copying the designs of Kawasaki (Japanese train maker)
2. Chinese car manufacturer creating the Chery QQ, which is a blatant clone of the Daewoo Matiz (a car that was designed and engineered in Worthing, England) ...

OK, how about a few notable examples that went the other direction:

Papermaking
Printing
Paper money
Gunpowder
Magnetic compass
Potter's wheel

I'd say China has contributed rather a lot that the western world has made good use of. Would the Industrial Revolution had even happened in Britain if not for all of the above?

smurfylicious wrote:

...What I said was that China has almost saturated the domestic and international market for it's own industrial output.

If there was saturation, the Chinese market for foreign goods would be have levelled off - but it hasn't, it is still growing and that is what is keeping a lot of western companies in business.

At some point in the future, China's competitiveness due to low labour rates will level off and you will think of them just like Americans, Japanese or Europeans in terms of economic development.

You seem to be suggesting that because the Industrial Revolution supposedly started in Britain, we are somehow worse off because our knowledge of manufacturing spread to the rest of the world - well, I would disagree, because technology is not a zero-sum game - the contributions of "competitors" leads to improvements and innovations which we all benefit from.

stevec205gti

SmellTheGlove wrote:

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

Also who would decide what material to use (tungsten etc), does the engineer have any input?

Yes he does, and behind the scenes he'll fight for every miniscule percentage of the minor alloying elements too, just so fat-walleted buggers can enjoy their scandium frames or whatever the product may be.

Outside of work though, we're mostly normal and enjoy a pint (but only if the glass is nicely made of course)

You missed the bit where all of a sudden some arsehole manager or penny pincher in purchasing changes it to make it cheaper to make without actually consulting any of us relevant engineers in the first place......

I'm currently working as a mechanical engineer for a company that does a lot of glass blowing - my role is to help look at some of the processes manually done then design bespoke/modify commercial equipment to do things automatically. Hopefully this has given you the example of someone whose job it is to look at something like turning a dart by hand and working out ways to automate the process...

Cleat Eastwood

stevec205gti wrote:

SmellTheGlove wrote:

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

Also who would decide what material to use (tungsten etc), does the engineer have any input?

Yes he does, and behind the scenes he'll fight for every miniscule percentage of the minor alloying elements too, just so fat-walleted buggers can enjoy their scandium frames or whatever the product may be.

Outside of work though, we're mostly normal and enjoy a pint (but only if the glass is nicely made of course)

You missed the bit where all of a sudden some arsehole manager or penny pincher in purchasing changes it to make it cheaper to make without actually consulting any of us relevant engineers in the first place......

I'm currently working as a mechanical engineer for a company that does a lot of glass blowing - my role is to help look at some of the processes manually done then design bespoke/modify commercial equipment to do things automatically. Hopefully this has given you the example of someone whose job it is to look at something like turning a dart by hand and working out ways to automate the process...

Indeed, many thanks, and ta muchly to all who took the time to answer my noob question. It's funny but i was talking to someone the other day about how if overnight you took away all of our scientific knowledge we'd somehow get by; but if you removed all of our engineering knowldege (from bridge building, to houses, to cars) we'd be back in the dark ages almost immediately, i reckon anyway.

Shame that as a nation we lost that Victorian engineering impetus.