Bank transfer payments

tofu21

hello,

If someone pays money into my bank account am I safe to post as soon as it appears as cleared funds in my account?

I've heard stories of bankers draft fraud etc.. And people being sh_fted!

thanks simon

weeksy59

Who, from where ? how much ? spoken on phone ?

Basically to the best of my knowledge it's safe as safe can be, i've paid and taken payments for several thousands for motorbikes.

tofu21

Some random bloke, london, £700, not yet.

I'm also a bit suspect that he is happy to give me the money with no garantee that i will post it!

Northwind

If it's been paid by Faster Payment, BACS or CHAPS, there's no way for it to be taken back out of your account once it's cleared there without your bank's collusion- which would be either due to you giving permission, them acting illegally, or court order. So, pretty safe.

tofu21

How about if the money came from an account that has been hacked?

weeksy59

I think you need the Illuminati if you think some fella is hacking bank accounts and buying s/h mountain bikes lol.

tofu21

Sorry my tinfoil hat slipped, did I miss something?

MountainMonster

Basically, we highly doubt anyone is goign to hack bank accounts to buy second hand mountain bikes. maybe second hand Ferraris, but not MTB's.

Once the money is in your account, it is very hard to get it back out without your permission.

tofu21

Hard but not impossible?

MountainMonster

Nothing in this world is impossible, but I'd much rather take bank transfers than paypal or something else.

Once the money is in, it is 98% yours.

Northwind

tofu21 wrote:

How about if the money came from an account that has been hacked?

In theory the victim might bring a court case against you to try and recover the funds but that's not at all likely. If his bank admits fault they'll settle, if it's his fault his bank will tell him to bugger off.

Actually doubly in practice it's spectcularily unlikely to happen in the first place, a fraudster won't want to give out IP and physical addresses in this way, and there's better things to do with a cracked bank account.

couldashouldawoulda

"Faster Payments" via bank transfer are effectively completely non reversible. Unlike cheques, bankers drafs, paypal etc. Once the money arrives in your balance (from a UK bank on a "faster" platform) it's the same as crisp £20 notes in your hand. I lost 2 years of my life to the tech that backs this up.

By effectively non-reversibe - it means that you as the recepient have to agree to the reversal. Or you can be forced by a court order to agree to the reversal. Which is almost impossible.

mr_poll

Bankers draft fraud is very rare - it essentially involves forgery of a bankers draft. Receipt of a bankers draft is as good as cash as it is cleared funds (the funds are removed from his account when the draft is drawn up by the bank), so unless you have a forgery then you are good to go.

One fraud I saw when I worked in the bank was "calling ahead to check for funds" or "express clearance" as it used to be called. Essentially there is a point during the clearing cycle (think its day 3) when the recipient can ask the banks to speak and check that the funds (which wont have been, but will about to be debited) are in the payee's account - this is done a day before the cheque clears. There is a window where a fraudster can then ask for the goods as the banks say the funds are there - and then the fraudsters take the goods and nips to the bank to empty his/her account - when the cheque hits the account it bounces and you are left with zip. However with faster technology and banks being wise to it I am not sure if this is still possible - however I think that is what you might thinking of (hope that made sense)

Northwind

Oh, a wee clarification from my earlier post... BACS payments can, in just the right perfect storm, be recalled out of your account even after the funds are fully cleared, by the accursed late recall. These are pretty damn rare, and most of the time when they're done they're done wrong and invalid, but it's still a theoretical possibility.

The other thing to watch, is that cleared funds doesn't mean cleared funds- some banks grant access to funds before they're fully cleared in certain circumstances, leading to situations like people receiving a cheque, drawing against it, then having it bounce. Tons of fun.

diy

giving your bank details out is always a bad idea. Can you not send him a paypal invoice and he can then pay it?

weeksy59

diy wrote:

giving your bank details out is always a bad idea.

you mean like when you give someone a cheque ?

gilesjuk

diy wrote:

giving your bank details out is always a bad idea.

About all they can do is set up a direct debit to your account.

Clarkson posted his details online as a challenge to people to steal his money and that's all they managed to do.

diy

Check your facts - there was a direct debit setup to pay £500 to a charity.

I'm a Landlord and I've had banks setup direct debits the wrong way round, takes ages to get the money back, particularly when my tenant claimed the money had still left his account and no money had been paid in.

DF33

Bacs payments, from memory are not safe straight away. They show in your account around day three and can usually be used but I'm sure the 'deal' is not concluded for a few days after that and this grey area can be exploited

My bank told me when I went deeper and queried antransfer that I should wait 7 days before posting the goods even though the cash was in my account on day 3, saying the transaction isn't complete till then and to check with them it had fully completed.

Maybe someone in banking could clarify?

As to giving your bank account details out, safe as houses. They can only pay in to your account, nothing more

Northwind

diy wrote:

Check your facts - there was a direct debit setup to pay £500 to a charity.

Which if he'd contacted his bank about, he'd have had the payment refunded instantly under the indemnity.

DF33 wrote:

My bank told me when I went deeper and queried antransfer that I should wait 7 days before posting the goods even though the cash was in my account on day 3, saying the transaction isn't complete till then and to check with them it had fully completed.

Aye, that's the late recall- your bank playing it very safe there, as it's a one-in-millions case (I worked in BACS for 5 years and only ever heard of two going through succesfully for our 3 banks- one went off into a court case and the victim recovered the funds, don't know about the result of the other). Used to happen more with the older recalls processes.

diy

I'm not disputing you will not get your money back eventually

It took 3 months in my case and created a bit of bad feeling with the tenant, because the bank accused him of fraud, as part of their initial denial of responsibility. I'm fortunate they took me seriously fairly quickly, probably due to my profession.

It was a case of setting up the DD the wrong way around, but it does mean that signatures are probably not checked as frequently as they should be.

Northwind

Bank doesn't have the option to shift blame with DDs, as long as you meet one of the criteria for an indemnity. Course, sometimes they screw it up in which case complaint then ombudsman if not resolved, but if they do it right you get your money back immediately. I'm suspecting though that in your case it wasn't a DD, but was one of the other electronic methods?

Not really a signature checking issue though, if the DD originator is on the auddis system then the bank doesn't have the opportunity to check signatures- it's all reactive, if someone complains then it can be checked.