Grade Red

Richie63

Now to be honest I'm not sure where to begin on this one. Last Sunday, with working down in the south East, I decided to go to Bedgebury and cycled the Red Graded route there including the Black section.

Now my point of all this is apart from having some length to the ride what is on this trail to give it a RED grade. It is flat pretty much all the way around the only up bits are minimal and only climb a few metres and the surface is manicured to the point of boring.

Don't we have some basic standards for what a trail is given - a collective grading system similar to climbing grading - or can trail parks give their own grades attracting unwary mountain bikers to cycle something they might not have bothered with had the grading been correct, or at least realistic.

Back to Bedgebury , I did enjoy the cycle around the park but all the time was expecting the trail to 'start' but it never did. The black section has 6/7 berms going down a slope with a couple of 30cm steps on it, surly this cannot be considered black by any stretch of the imagination.


This mess needs sorting out!

Youngsie 96

If you think that's bad, try Thetford :x A standard grading system seems far more logical than just comparing it to other trails at the centre- imagine if a beginner, or even a family as I've seen at Thetford, does the black at an easy centre and then goes to a Scottish trail centre, for example, and think "I've done a black trail before, so I can do this". It's obviously not going to end well.

ddraver

Richie63 wrote:

Don't we have some basic standards for what a trail is given

No, we don't.

Grading at Trail centres in the UK presently appears to refer only to the induvidual trail centre, not all Trail Centres in the country - try comparing Llandegla "Black" to the 7Staines "blacks" (or even "reds for that matter).In fact, try comparing the "Red" Marin trail to the "black" at Llandegla.

In fact there are few sports that do. A black in a ski resort in Les2Alpes (for example) is an easy red in Val d'Isere. Basically it's a marketing excercise - Would you have gone to Bedgebury, paid for the car park, bought an inner tube in the shop, had a cake in th ecafe etc etc, if you knew there was only an easy blue there?

timpop

It seems a bit random. Maybe it's time for a national grading system. Someone could ride all the trail centres in the UK and set a standard system for all. I'll do that job.

Richie63

Knowing that there was "an easy blue" as my route of the day would have certainly put me off the £8.50 parking and I would have gone to my next venue PORC as that days riding.

Having said that I enjoyed the riding that I did there and this is not a thread to knock Bedgebury.

Carrying on could we start a list of the hardest trails at trail centres to get some bench marks for a possible data base? ie top end black mid black and easy black

bluechair84

ddraver wrote:

Richie63 wrote:

Basically it's a marketing excercise

/\ Sherwood Pines = this. The red is a laughing stock.

Climbers have a grading issue that's relevant here. Do you grade to the toughest feature; advising a climber on whether they may come across something they simply can't get up, or do you grade an average to give a better sense of the overall challenge?

I get the feeling some of the tame centres are grading to a particular feature leaving us wanting for the remaining 99%.

santahul

The Black sections at Cannock Chase are basically long raised logs which you try not to fall off. They aren't even thick logs, they're more like sticks. AND they have rocks and stuff underneath. I've not managed to do them yet.

Tim.s

timpop wrote:

Maybe it's time for a national grading system.

We have one, anything that can't be ridden on a kids bike with stabilisers is red or black.

Northwind

There's all sorts of problems with it. Some grades are just old... What used to be black is now pretty red in most cases (Glentress black and the like). Others like you say are graded to one hard feature rather than the overall trail (bad trailbuilding this).

Some are just plain wrong... Kielder with its blue graded trail that also says "If you're in an invalid carriage make sure the batteries are fully charged". Kielder then compounded that by making an "easy red" that was designed to be an introduction to trail riding. We already have that, it's BLUE. But your blues are green so you had to invent another grade.

Then you've got the ulterior motives. "Our trail centre has to have a red a black and a blue, so we'll grade this black". Or Nevis Range's "If we grade this black, less people will ride it, so we'll call it a red"

Course, there's also different types of difficulty... You might find rock gardens easy but woodwork hard frinstance, or hate steep bits but be great at jumps.

Richie63

Funny, I thought that the NEW black sections at Cannock were quite good and what I would expect for a trail centre they were great rocky steps and awkward approach rock gardens albeit a bit short for the fun to last.

As to the rock climbing grading the old British system had a component part for the overall feel / danger of the climb but combined this with a technical grade for the hardest single move for example HVS 5a would be a climb in the Hard Very Severe class with a technical grade of 5a. The technical grade for HVS could possibly run from 5a to 5c any higher ie 6a which was the next level would probably move the climb into the Extreme grades E1 and so on.

For those more used to indoor walls a continental grading system is adopted from 4a up to 8b and upwards with + and - signs putting shades on a grade. The only thing with this is that it was developed for climbing where there was very little chance of danger to the climber and the movement on the rock was all that mattered.

the British system of climbing grading could be applied with the length of ride and effort needed to get around coupled with a tech grade depending on rock gardens jumps etc.

santahul

You're right Richie, I was thinking of one black section in particular, near the beginning, I do however think Cannock serves as a benchmark to what should should be considered red and black. The red isn't the kind of thing you'd take your kids round and if it says black then you know it will be difficult the first time round.

Richie63

The red isn't the kind of thing you'd take your kids round and if it says black then you know it will be difficult the first time round

This could be the start of a grading system

Raymondavalon

I don't believe a national grading system would ever work as demographically the natural terrain does vary.
Some trail centres would comprise of narrow routes through trees aided with felling and bedrock for longevity with ascents, descents, drop offs and boardwalks.
Other trail centres are are based in rather naturally flat terrain and sometimes consist of fast, but wider routes with or without bedrock to prevent erosion.
However, this doesn't make them ideal for family riding as what's mild to us who enthuse in this activity may be wild to the fair weather riders who get out a few times in summer.

The black sections at Cannock can result in pain galore, they're not to be taken for granted, however, they are quite short in comparison (to the red)
To be honest, I've done a few trail centres and Cannock's red is head and shoulders above other trail centres' interpretation of a "red route"

Perhaps this explains why every now and then I stumble across a clan of Muppets crawling along the Cannock red routes on supermarket bikes with no safety gear?

bluechair84

Agree with all. As said previously, trail centres that lack in topography wouldn't take up a nationalised (?) grade system as it would sap the vast amount of income they get from the hoards of enthusiasts who turn up come lightening storm or drought to enjoy the ride.

But even a proper grading system won't stop superdad from hitting doubles and drops to impress his family (for my recent pleasure; 'hey son watch this' - straight into a 6pack. Ride home with a broken nose. Prat.). IMO would only benefit seasoned riders.

drumandguitar

Not sure Im seeing the problem here. If you have travelled halfway across the country to ride a trail that disappoints because its too easy for your uber skills, well surely if you were travelling that far you would have done some research first. Takes about 2 mins of googling to get an idea of the relative difficulty of most trails in the country.

You're never going to get Llandegla or the like who make a fortune selling the riding dream to Dad and little Jimmy every weekend to announce 'come all to our trail centre and ride our pathetically easy black which is really a red and doesn't actually compare very well to Cannock Chase, infact why bother, just head up the M6 to the Scottish Borders while your at it'

Cant say Ive ever been so disappointed in a trail centre trail difficulty thats its ruined my day, or that I didn't know what to expect. Put it down to experience, you went and rode it, maybe you weren't as challenged as you expected, tick it off in your little black book and move on.

Anonymous

How about a letter and a colour, such a C RED.
Letters, let's arbitrarily say, A-D designate the physical demands of the trail, and the colour represents the grading. Grading is to be decided by riders, so when a new trail opens, or is about to open, someone like the Wrecking crew, or similar groups of riders with a great deal of experiences of various trails check it out and rate it.

Anonymous

drumandguitar wrote:

Not sure Im seeing the problem here. If you have travelled halfway across the country to ride a trail that disappoints because its too easy for your uber skills, well surely if you were travelling that far you would have done some research first. Takes about 2 mins of googling to get an idea of the relative difficulty of most trails in the country.

But there in lies the problem. The internet (and trail centres) are full of spasmoloids who can barely ride, so trusting their opinion on something is pointless.
And where someone tends to ride dictates how they rate something's technical ability. A lot of the riders from Llandegla, as a perfect example, actually think they're awesomes!!!11!! riders for doing the Llandegla black.

cooldad

Should grade according to severities of injuries.

Bumps and bruises - blue
Broken limbs, minor bleeding - green
Severe injuries, brain damage, copious bleeding - red.
Death - black.

Simple.

Too old for this

^^^^ This

Nice one cooldad LMAO.

getonyourbike

cooldad wrote:

Should grade according to severities of injuries.

Bumps and bruises - green
Broken limbs, minor bleeding - blue
Severe injuries, brain damage, copious bleeding - red.
Death - black.

Simple.

You had it the wrong way round, but yes!

lesz42

just because a trail is easy, does not mean its fun? the true blue at llandegla is fun, and its not technical as such

bluechair84

drumandguitar wrote:

Not sure Im seeing the problem here...
Cant say Ive ever been so disappointed in a trail centre trail difficulty thats its ruined my day...
maybe you weren't as challenged as you expected, tick it off in your little black book and move on.

No one is really complaining to the point of 'lets not bother'. But if you are of the opinion of 'put up and shut up' then how are we to expect trail centres to improve to our changing needs? The skills of enthusiasts I think are gradually increasing from the days when I was a kid and everyone was an XC mountain biker, to now-a-days when everyone is a trail rider expecting technical sections - with some even claiming that hallowed cliche 'all mountain rider'. The centers should be expected to keep up with this, and we might in future argue that the current crop of reds be down graded as bikes are developed with 7inches of travel that pedal like a hardtail (and a steel one at that )
The Pines could easily be developed into something more techincal with log sections, skinnies, rock gardens, more berms and kickers. they choose not to and as such is an old fashioned view of mountain biking.

mrfmilo

Back to OP, Bedgebury is laughable

Stevo_666

Richie,

This is Kent you're talking about - so it's a red by the standards of a lot of Southerners Don't think anyone has ever pretended that its anything other than a good bit of fast XC, so I just go faster to make it more fun.

They've given the main trail a red rating otherwise you'd get kids on stablisers having a go and blubbing to mummy when they come unstuck. And yep, the blacks a joke and takes about a minute to do, seems that anything that isn't rollable has to be black so those little drops make it a black :roll:

surreyxc

perhaps grading needs to be a bit like climbing grades, you have your technical difficulty and then the severity. For instance a drop-off by itself next to the car park is a world away from the same drop-off in the middle of half a dozen other challenges 10miles from anywhere.

We did a piece of pee XC route in the Alps, we could not figure out why it was graded so high till we saw the shear drop, very unlikely to mess up but if you did it was goodbye.

ddraver

Hmm, I'm feeling this climbing style grading - Use the Colours to give a general feel of a route - for example a 10km, reasonably technical run might be called a red, but if it was 30km it would be black. If it's a 10km blue with a single drop off then call it a blue but give it a harder technical grade.

But I still think that this would only ever something for those in the know (like us) as the Trail Centres will still call a forest road with a step in it a black to attract people. Think how much money OnePlanet must make selling 6" Carbon Sant Cruz's to rich people from Manchester who have read MBR and think they need to spend at least 5000 to ride a black run

(I'm not picking on Llandegla, it's just used to be one of my locals, and is a particularly good example)

surreyxc

Very true, trail centres are a new thing, it used to be just go out there and explore and use some judgement.

Stevo_666

ddraver wrote:

Think how much money OnePlanet must make selling 6" Carbon Sant Cruz's to rich people from Manchester who have read MBR and think they need to spend at least 5000 to ride a black run

(I'm not picking on Llandegla, it's just used to be one of my locals, and is a particularly good example)

Yep, had to smile when I saw a bloke with his Nomad at the Bedgebury caff last weekend. Talk about bringing a machine gun to a knife fight

AMcK

I agree with Stevo666 - this is Kent, not Wales... and the grading takes that into context.

Bedgebury isn't setting itself out as a fully blown trail centre in the same way that Coed y Brenin does - it's an arboretum with a lot of family friendly trails, walks, park areas, Go Ape, and 12-13km of xc singletrack and a free ride bit. I suspect the red/black grading is based around the local trails on offer - to dissuade (or at least warn) those who really don't know what they're doing, or are out for a family ride on a weekend.

It's not laughable either - it's what you make it - while not technically challenging, when you can't get out to Surrey Hills, and the Welsh mountains aren't on your doorstep, a few laps can still a blast on a Sunday morning. You just ride harder.

That said, the forestry commission blurb oversells it a bit IMHO.

and if the OP is after decent XC singletrack, don't go to PORC.

adrenalinemunki

If anyone on here wants to collaborate I run a web company and would happily put together a quick website which standardises grading...

i.e. we qualify what is really a red run for example, and translate that to different UK trail centres... good idea?

If anyone wants to start a list and build the content on this thread I'd get my guys to stick it all together and make it look fancy - or maybe start another thread?

Chinley Churner

[/quote]/\ Sherwood Pines = this. The red is a laughing stock.[/quote]

Must admit... I've ridden Sherwood Pines the last couple of weekends and had a blast. I live in the Dark Peak but wanted to put in some fast, solid and consistent effort sessions that are impossible on my local trails and it was spot on. No, probably not a Red if you compare it to CYB etc, but, considering the terrain they've got a fun, fast and flowing trail that's almost all singletrack. Three sub-40 mins laps of the Kitchener had me gasping and, riding at pace, threw up a few challenges to handling. Ride it as hard as you can cranking the big ring and it's fun, pootle round expecting gravity to kick in and it'd be a bore.