can't make my mind up - alfine 11 vs alfine 8

jedster

Ah ballcocks...

Having waited all this time for On-one to get hold of the versa 11 shifters I have my finger lurking over the buy button on a pompetamine versa 11. The thing is, its 400 quid extra for those three extra gears (the other changes dont seem very important to me). I'm torn between "cant be worth £400" and "but what if twice a day I'm wishing I'd got the extra gears"...

anyone got any sensible advice?
I appreciate that's a bit of an ask. I'll settle for any advice.

BTW - there is a 1 in 10 hill on my commute and the bike will be fairly heavy as is my panier normally...

Cheers,

J

davis

The Alfine 8 is a little heavier, which might make a difference, given that all the weight is in that hub -- it's not heavier than derailleurs overall (not a huge amount, anyway), but all the weight is concentrated in the tail of the bike. Feels a little odd.

As for the gearing, I think you'd be fine on a 10% with an 8. I rode my 8 up 17% in the "5th" (1:1) gear just to see if I could (small chainring, it was spinny on the flat).

I'm still dithering on the exact same bike myself... Card got denied at the security stage 'cos of the delivery address bobbins . :-)

meanredspider

Are the gears on the 8 a "sub-set" of the 11 (if you see what I mean) or the same range just more widely spaced?

asprilla

meanredspider wrote:

Are the gears on the 8 a "sub-set" of the 11 (if you see what I mean) or the same range just more widely spaced?

I think the 11 is roughly the same range but with more steps. The other, possibly interesting, thing is that the steps in the 11 are more evenly spaced, whereas there are some quite big jumps on the 8.

walkingbootweather

What you really need is a Rohloff Speedhub

elcani

As far as I know the 8 has a range of 320% whereas the 11 is 400% - so a useful extension in range. Cant remember where I read that though.

Cheers.

meanredspider

Asprilla wrote:

I think the 11 is roughly the same range but with more steps. The other, possibly interesting, thing is that the steps in the 11 are more evenly spaced, whereas there are some quite big jumps on the 8.

So the 8 is possibly just as able to climb the 10% slope but maybe not as comfortable ride at some speeds/gears. I was staggered by the extra £400 when I looked at this - basically half the cost of the Boardman CX I ended up with - for 3 extra gears over the 8. You'd have to be a fairly hardcore Alfine fan to want to pay that.

meanredspider

Been off to look

Alfine 11
Gear Ratio Total Difference 409%
Gear Ratio 1 0.527
Gear Ratio 2 0.681
Gear Ratio 3 0.770
Gear Ratio 4 0.878
Gear Ratio 5 0.995
Gear Ratio 6 1.134
Gear Ratio 7 1.292
Gear Ratio 8 1.462
Gear Ratio 9 1.667
Gear Ratio 10 1.888
Gear Ratio 11 2.153

Alfine 8
Gear Ratio Total Difference 307%
Gear Ratio 1 0.527
Gear Ratio 2 0.644
Gear Ratio 3 0.748
Gear Ratio 4 0.851
Gear Ratio 5 1
Gear Ratio 6 1.223
Gear Ratio 7 1.419
Gear Ratio 8 1.615

So actually a fair bit of difference in those last 2 ratios

UndercoverElephant

meanredspider wrote:

Asprilla wrote:

I think the 11 is roughly the same range but with more steps. The other, possibly interesting, thing is that the steps in the 11 are more evenly spaced, whereas there are some quite big jumps on the 8.

So the 8 is possibly just as able to climb the 10% slope but maybe not as comfortable ride at some speeds/gears. I was staggered by the extra £400 when I looked at this - basically half the cost of the Boardman CX I ended up with - for 3 extra gears over the 8. You'd have to be a fairly hardcore Alfine fan to want to pay that.

+1, in fact, I don't really get the obsession with Alfine gears in general. From what I hear, the Versa shifters aren't great, they have large steps, they're inefficient in various gears, they're heavy and expensive.

OK, I buy the durability if you're going around the world, but I have derailleurs which are clocking up 8,000 miles and still going strong. That's a lot of down-sides just because you don't like cleaning your chain once a week, IMO.

UndercoverElephant

meanredspider wrote:

Been off to look

Alfine 11
Gear Ratio Total Difference 409%
Gear Ratio 1 0.527
Gear Ratio 2 0.681
Gear Ratio 3 0.770
Gear Ratio 4 0.878
Gear Ratio 5 0.995
Gear Ratio 6 1.134
Gear Ratio 7 1.292
Gear Ratio 8 1.462
Gear Ratio 9 1.667
Gear Ratio 10 1.888
Gear Ratio 11 2.153

Alfine 8
Gear Ratio Total Difference 307%
Gear Ratio 1 0.527
Gear Ratio 2 0.644
Gear Ratio 3 0.748
Gear Ratio 4 0.851
Gear Ratio 5 1
Gear Ratio 6 1.223
Gear Ratio 7 1.419
Gear Ratio 8 1.615

So actually a fair bit of difference in those last 2 ratios but at the "wrong" end for the OP

But no 1:1, which if I remember correctly was the only gear in the Alfine 8 which could match a derailleur system's efficiency.

meanredspider

Please ignore my ""wrong" end" comment - momentarily forgot about chain ring sizes... :oops:

edhornby

if the price difference is £400 then get the 8speed - think about the rest of the bike, it's functional rather than bike pron

pangolin

Does anyone know what the efficiency ratings are for the different gears on an Alfine hub?

I have an 8 speed and it would be useful to know which ones to avoid! I guess I could buy a powertap :?

UndercoverElephant

pangolin wrote:

Does anyone know what the efficiency ratings are for the different gears on an Alfine hub?

I have an 8 speed and it would be useful to know which ones to avoid! I guess I could buy a powertap :?

From:

http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf

Which has only information for the 7-speed Shimano hub gears, in percents:

Shimano 7 90.8 90.7 87.4 89.0 83.6 90.9 88.2

The dérailleur systems are in the mid-to high 90's on the same basis.

jedster

Thanks to everyone for the comments. Just ordered the Versa 11 after doing a bit more research. The hub seems to be "better" as well as having extra gears. Different bearings and in an oil rather than a grease bath means more efficiency. My understanding is that the Alfine 8 is more efficient than the Nexus 7 and that the Alfine 11 is a step above the Alfine 8 in terms of efficiency - so shouldn't give much away over derailleur systems (particular when they are dirty and you are not in a gear combination with perfect chain line).

I take the point that derailleur systems work fine. I agree, my current bike has been used all year round in all weathers for 5 years. That said, I've spent a fair bit of time and money on cassettes, chain rings, chains all of which should be cheaper and easier with a hub gear. Over the years, I've tried to get my commuter as hassle free as possible and this is the next step.

Beyond that, I just like the clean looks of hub gear systems. I really like bikes that are clean and simple looking and although we are used to seeing derailleur transmissions, they are actually a horribly messy collection of gubbins.
I don't think there is much of a weight penalty when you add everything up.

Another selling point for the 11 was that it comes with a hub dyno front wheel which I wanted anyway. would have cost me about £140 as an extra.

Anyway... new bike!
J

UndercoverElephant

jedster wrote:

Thanks to everyone for the comments. Just ordered the Versa 11 after doing a bit more research. The hub seems to be "better" as well as having extra gears. Different bearings and in an oil rather than a grease bath means more efficiency. My understanding is that the Alfine 8 is more efficient than the Nexus 7 and that the Alfine 11 is a step above the Alfine 8 in terms of efficiency - so shouldn't give much away over derailleur systems (particular when they are dirty and you are not in a gear combination with perfect chain line).

I take the point that derailleur systems work fine. I agree, my current bike has been used all year round in all weathers for 5 years. That said, I've spent a fair bit of time and money on cassettes, chain rings, chains all of which should be cheaper and easier with a hub gear. Over the years, I've tried to get my commuter as hassle free as possible and this is the next step.

Beyond that, I just like the clean looks of hub gear systems. I really like bikes that are clean and simple looking and although we are used to seeing derailleur transmissions, they are actually a horribly messy collection of gubbins.
I don't think there is much of a weight penalty when you add everything up.

Another selling point for the 11 was that it comes with a hub dyno front wheel which I wanted anyway. would have cost me about £140 as an extra.

Anyway... new bike!
J

Nice, congratulations! Which dynamo wheel? Just built myself one this week.

jedster

It's build by on-one

Rim: DT TK 540 Silver

Front Hub: Nexus Dynamo 32h Silver
Actually don't know which one so could be inferior to the wheel I was pricing
but to be honest, I've been using cheap shimano dyno hubs for a few years and they've been bombproof.... touch wood

jonny_trousers

UndercoverElephant wrote:

I don't really get the obsession with Alfine gears in general. From what I hear, the Versa shifters aren't great, they have large steps, they're inefficient in various gears, they're heavy and expensive.

I've come around to this way of thinking too. Go not that far back into my posting history and you will see how I was desperate for a drop-bar, 11-speed alfine bike to be produced, but this was a desire based on nothing beyond aesthetics and the mistaken belief that being able to shift at a standstill was of great benefit. I do see the advantages of hub gears in certain circumstances, and how most of us don't really need more than 11 gears on our commute, but the price far outweighs the positives to me right now.

All that said, bike choice and taste is completely personal and the Pompetamine 11-speed Versa really does like a fantastic bike, so, congratulations on your new purchase Jedster; I'm sure you'll love it.

k1jones

Recently bought a Charge Duster 11 and I love the Alfine 11 after switching from an 18 gear compact on my previous bike.

You need to watch the chainring and cog ratios - this one is 32T to 20T and I reckon that gives a top speed of about 25mph at 90rpm. Some might find this a bit slow, but perfect for me and gives a really useful low gear. With the overlaps and unusable gears on the compact I think this has about the same number of gears, but with a better low gear.

You will notice how quet it is and being able to change to any gear without pedalling is quite nice.

Missed a few gear changes when I first got it, but a simple twiddle to align the yellow dots and haven't had a missed gear since.

marksteven

had my 8 spd hub for 3 years now & love it, bought the pompetermine frame bout a year ago , & the versa shifters bout 4 months ago , its brilliant currently on 38mm tyres so can go any where , the thing that annoys me is the anti hub gear brigade some people really hate it, with out ever trying it, but they'l catch up 1 day , enjoy ya bike you'l love it

Moodyman

marksteven wrote:

had my 8 spd hub for 3 years now & love it, bought the pompetermine frame bout a year ago , & the versa shifters bout 4 months ago , its brilliant currently on 38mm tyres so can go any where , the thing that annoys me is the anti hub gear brigade some people really hate it, with out ever trying it, but they'l catch up 1 day , enjoy ya bike you'l love it

I've got the Alfine 8 and it's very good, but there are gaps between gears that just don't allow you maintain your optimal cadence. This is a pain in undulating terrain. Gear 4 might be to spinney whilst gear 5 is too grindy.

I prefer my 8 x 3 derailleur set up in Spring/Summer. But the Alfine comes into its own in winter.