Groups - How big is too big?

strangesteve

A local cafe/restaurant has a loose collective of cyclists associated with it and puts on events now and again which I have no issue with at all

However they have just decided to put on a 'lets get as many out as possible' run perhaps as often as once a month

This is clearly good for generating enthusiasm for cycling and doubtless good for their own business model getting 50 or so hungry cyclists and their families back to a restaurant at lunchtime

However I have just had the misfortune to be stuck behind this massed peleton of pain in a car out in the Peak District

Have you ever tried overtaking a group of 50 cyclists in a car?
Its not easy

Now when Ive been on club runs 15-20 seems a bit unwieldy however with respect to other road users doesnt cause too much antagonisation, but almost triple this number is just sticking two fingers up to everyone else trying to use the road

Are their any guidelines for sizes of groups?
Ive tried phoning the restaurant to chat to them but noones picking up the phone

TIA

Teddy Westside

I can see how that would be a problem and further degrade the relationship between motorist and cyclist. My suggestion would be that the organisers appoint a few riders they trust as marshals who will be in charge of their own smaller group.Then the options (depending on the abilities of the riders taking part) will be either to stagger their start times or simply split the groups by ability. It requires all the riders to respect this but hopefully any dissenters would either be persuaded to tow the line (i.e. stay in their appointed group) or be convinced not to return by either the cafe or their fellow riders. (I would suggest they take a quick photo of each rider so they know who has been asked not to return but these days that would likely lead to all sorts of data protection scenarios to be followed!).

Personally, motorists are generally prepared to sit fuming behind a tractor or heavy transporter for several minutes but unwilling to show such restraint with a group of cyclist, though I appreciate there is a difference in that a group of cyclists could split into smaller group to allow cars to pass a few bikes at a time. Then again, can we trust all drivers to do that responsibly? (A debate for another thread! )

If you can't get through on the phone, why not (since it's a local cafe) just try to visit at an appropriate time, ideally on your bike if you're not known to the cafe owner(s) to show that you're on their side, not just an angry driver? First impressions and all that.

gsk82

50 cyclist > (up to) 5 car passenger

therefore the car should sit and wait

piquet

strangesteve wrote:

A local cafe/restaurant has a loose collective of cyclists associated with it and puts on events now and again which I have no issue with at all


TIA

50 is an unreasonably large group - both for other road users and in terms of managing the group.

CTC groups i ride with are generally no more than 20.

i would suggest splitting the group into several smaller groups

piquet

gsk82 wrote:

50 cyclist > (up to) 5 car passenger

therefore the car should sit and wait

by your logic, car with 5 passengers held up by cyclist on a narrow hill, the cyclist should stop and let the car by?

geebee2

I'd say 50 is much too big. Ideally groups should be up to 14 or 16 riders, 20 is uncomfortably large.

I think 50 riders would be best split into 3 or 4 groups.

rolf_f

What would be the point in riding in such a big group anyway?

strangesteve

Rolf F wrote:

What would be the point in riding in such a big group anyway?

At a guess to guarantee 50 cyclists plus families back at your restaurant for 1230h just in time for lunch which you advertise on your website along with the pre ride coffee

rolf_f

Lol - true enough. However, even the restaurant might prefer a few smaller groups arriving at intervals rather than one huge bunch - just like the drivers would!

sharky1029

Lance armstrong got 400 out in scotland and that would be impossible to overtake
As long as they stick to quiet roads it shouldn't be too much of a disturbance.

nferrar

50 is too big unless they're all pretty experienced and of similar fitness IMO, although it might naturally fragment into smaller groups which would probably be a good thing. As someone who drives as well as cycles I do wish groups of cyclists would pull over occasionally on narrow roads to let traffic through (the same way as good HGV drivers do for cars). Yes we have as much right to use the road as car drivers but the odd minute of slight inconvenience is warranted IMO to let cars through and hopefully foster some goodwill (ofc there are always some idiots that get road rage if they have to slow from 80+ for more than a few seconds)

knedlicky

By law, on an open road (so not closed for an event) cyclists aren’t allowed to ride side-by-side if they markedly hinder other traffic. Roughly-speaking this means forcing the overtaking car to change lanes in order to overtake (irrespective whether this is also necessary if riders are in single file). A road lane therefore has to be pretty wide for this not to apply, or the whole road has to have very little traffic, so an overtaking car can very comfortably change lanes.
Pointing this out to the organising café might make it try and get the cyclists to ride in more orderly fashion.

On the Continent (I don’t know about the UK), the one legal exception, even on a busy road, is when there are 16 or more riders together. In which case, they are allowed to ride pairwise together, and other traffic users (i.e. cars following) have to regard the group of cyclists like they would a long slow moving vehicle, e.g. a farm tractor with long trailer, and adjust their behaviour appropriately (including have patience).

Admittedly, in the OP’s quoted case, this means a pretty long ‘snake’ of cyclists (25 pairs at 2.5-3.0 m length per pair equals 50-75 m), so still wouldn’t mean happy motorists, but at least the cyclists are then legally within their rights.

If there is a range of abilities, a long ‘snake’ will eventually break into a couple of smaller ones. However, on a busy road therein lies another problem. So long as the shorter ‘snakes’ are still fairly close together, inevitably more cars than possible will try and squeeze into the gap between them, unfairly forcing the second ‘snake’ to slow.

bendertherobot

knedlicky wrote:

By law, on an open road (so not closed for an event) cyclists aren’t allowed to ride side-by-side if they markedly hinder other traffic. .

Which "law?"

The Highway Code, which is not law, recommends not riding MORE than two abreast. It is silent on how many are part of a peleton.

It also recommends being in single file on narrower stretches. But that's a recommendation.

Conversely, it also says that cars should overtake cyclists by giving as much space as they would a car.

All of which is advisory.

Stiff_Orange

knedlicky wrote:

By law, on an open road (so not closed for an event) cyclists aren’t allowed to ride side-by-side if they markedly hinder other traffic.

Disagree with there being an actual law.

Highway code: Rule 66

You should

•never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends

The 2 laws that could be applied are:-

Careless cycling

An offence committed by any person who rides a bicycle without due care and attention and consideration for others.
The punishment for careless cycling is a fine, subject to the courts discretion, of up to £1000

Dangerous Cycling

An offence committed by any person who rides a bicycle in a manner that would be considered dangerous by a competent and careful cyclist; danger of injury to any person, or of damage to property.
The punishment for dangerous cycling is a fine, subject to the court's discretion, of up to £2500.

But back to OP. If we assume that the average cyclist takes up 2 meters on the road, that makes a obstacle of 50m if 2 abreast or 100m if single file.
50 meters is longer than 2 HGV's, on a standard UK A road (one lane in each direction) I know that quite a few people would never attempt to overtake such a large obstacle and some that would and probably take out half the cyclist when it went wrong.
Add in a couple of impatient drivers and some kids in 'maxpowered' corsa's and you may aswell put in a direct call to the grim reaper.

thegibdog

knedlicky wrote:

By law, on an open road (so not closed for an event) cyclists aren’t allowed to ride side-by-side if they markedly hinder other traffic. Roughly-speaking this means forcing the overtaking car to change lanes in order to overtake (irrespective whether this is also necessary if riders are in single file). A road lane therefore has to be pretty wide for this not to apply, or the whole road has to have very little traffic, so an overtaking car can very comfortably change lanes.

That's the first time I've heard of this "law" which sounds like it advocates overtaking other road users in the same lane.

sheffsimon

strangesteve wrote:

A local cafe/restaurant has a loose collective of cyclists associated with it and puts on events now and again which I have no issue with at all

However they have just decided to put on a 'lets get as many out as possible' run perhaps as often as once a month

This is clearly good for generating enthusiasm for cycling and doubtless good for their own business model getting 50 or so hungry cyclists and their families back to a restaurant at lunchtime

However I have just had the misfortune to be stuck behind this massed peloton of pain in a car out in the Peak District

Have you ever tried overtaking a group of 50 cyclists in a car?
Its not easy

Now when Ive been on club runs 15-20 seems a bit unwieldy however with respect to other road users doesnt cause too much antagonisation, but almost triple this number is just sticking two fingers up to everyone else trying to use the road

Are their any guidelines for sizes of groups?
Ive tried phoning the restaurant to chat to them but noones picking up the phone

TIA

Nonna's ???

knedlicky

Okay ‘law’ might not be the right word, but this

Stiff_Orange wrote:

never ride more than two abreast, and ride in single file on narrow or busy roads and when riding round bends

and this

Stiff_Orange wrote:

Careless cycling - An offence committed by any person who rides a bicycle without due care and attention and consideration for others

would probably amount to the same in the eyes of any police who came across the situation in the Peak District which the OP related, even if the police just let it go with a warning.

thegibdog wrote:

That's the first time I've heard of this "law" which sounds like it advocates overtaking other road users in the same lane.

You’ve misunderstood what I’ve written to interpret it like that.

thegibdog

knedlicky wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

That's the first time I've heard of this "law" which sounds like it advocates overtaking other road users in the same lane.

You’ve misunderstood what I’ve written to interpret it like that.

No I haven't. You said that forcing cars to change lanes to overtake is "markedly hindering traffic".

Tom Butcher

As a motorist of 27 years I can remember exactly how many times I've been held up for more than about 10 seconds by a group of cyclists - never. I have been held up by milk floats, lorries, caravans, large vehicles on the motorway etc etc - it's part of life - if I have the misfortune to get stuck behind these 50 cyclists I'll accept it as just one of those things - not assume my right to get where I'm going as quickly as possible trumps the rights of everyone else.

When and where does this take place anyway sounds fun - might make it 51 cyclists if it's not too far away.

andy_wrx

thegibdog wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

That's the first time I've heard of this "law" which sounds like it advocates overtaking other road users in the same lane.

You’ve misunderstood what I’ve written to interpret it like that.

No I haven't. You said that forcing cars to change lanes to overtake is "markedly hindering traffic".

Indeed - With an attitude like that, you wonder what the Daniel Cadden case achieved...

HebdenBiker

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with the consensus here.

If a group of 50 cyclists is "too big" because it's an inconvenience to other road users, then the thousands and thousands of cars that choke our roads each morning and evening should be considered a disaster.

hammerite

Our club used to operate a "more than 20 split into two groups" policy. We barely get 20 out for one ride now so it isn't as much of a problem. Mainly out of safety/consideration for riders and motorists, but also so that everyone doesn't have to wait ages for a cup of tea at the cafe stop.

Most of us wear club kit, and a people getting annoyed at your club does not create a good impression/PR in the local community.

knedlicky

thegibdog wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

That's the first time I've heard of this "law" which sounds like it advocates overtaking other road users in the same lane.

You’ve misunderstood what I’ve written to interpret it like that.

No I haven't. You said that forcing cars to change lanes to overtake is "markedly hindering traffic".

Sorry, but you have.
I’m talking about in what circumstances the authorities/police would judge (side-by-side) cyclists to ride ‘without due care and attention and consideration for others’. I think that would be when a motorist is required to change lanes to pass side-by-side cyclists.

And I did say that the authorities may make that judgement even though a car overtaking riders in single file would have to do exactly the same. And obviously a car would also have to change lanes to overtake another car.

That in all 3 cases, the motorist does the same manoeuvre doesn’t mean the authorities judge all 3 situations the same. For authorities, these things aren’t always based on logic or practical aspects.

Nor is it my opinion of what’s correct, just what I feel riders who ride side-by-side ought to be aware of.

thegibdog

knedlicky wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

thegibdog wrote:

That's the first time I've heard of this "law" which sounds like it advocates overtaking other road users in the same lane.

You’ve misunderstood what I’ve written to interpret it like that.

No I haven't. You said that forcing cars to change lanes to overtake is "markedly hindering traffic".

Sorry, but you have.

No I haven't. And I think I'm in a better position to say whether I have understood something or not.

vorsprung

A group of 50 in a double paceline as someone above pointed out is going to be 75m+ long

This is difficult to overtake safely. So I would expect most traffic to be stuck behind it except on long, clear stretches

If you must ride in such a large group then show a bit of give and take by pulling in for traffic every 5 minutes if you are on a busy road

If you don't like the idea of pulling in every 5 minutes then it's simple. Ride in a smaller group that is easier to pass safely.

In summary, car drivers should respect bicycle peletons. Groups of bikes should respect other traffic.