Compulsory cycling lessons for learner drivers.

Sirius631

This is not my e-petition, but I think this is well worth getting behind.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/12258

iPete

Added, I'd love to see this in some form.

I think before you take your practical test you should have to complete your theory test and a full days cycle training/ road proficiency. It would be odd to land driving instructors with the responsibility and nobody would actually do it. It should also not be pass/fail as this opens the door for compulsory cycle tests.

Alternatively, it could be added to pass plus but again it couldn't be done by the driving instructors.

Chris`I

Should be a case of:

Cycling proficiency (or similar) > CBT > Bike and/or Car tests

That would give people a real perspective of other road users. Of course this will never happen even though it would massively cut accidents IMO :roll:

shm_uk

You mean:

Green Cross Code > Cycling proficiency (or similar) > CBT > Bike and/or Car test > Bus/HGV test

Chris`I

Actually, while we are fixing the system for all road users, I would also say that powerful bikes (supersport/600CC+) should be an advance test as bus/HGV is for car users. See too many inexperienced riders going out on powerful motorbikes and killing themselves. Should be forced to learn on smaller bikes. I did direct access onto an R6 (600CC) having riden bikes on private land for many years and I couldnt imagine jumping straight to one from no experience.

godders1

You cannot be sirius!?

Ok, rubbish joke aside, I don’t get how this would work in practice and I don’t really like the idea of making people do things because of the perceived needs of a particular interest group (even if I’m a part of that interest group). In fact it smacks a bit of the “cyclists should be made to do a test” argument in reverse.

And who’s going to pay for the buying and maintaining of the vast fleet of bikes that would be required plus all of the additional administration etc?

I remember when I learned to drive I had two driving instructors and to put it politely they weren’t built for cycling.

Even if I thought it would help (which I don’t) it’s massively impractical.

Sirius631

I don't think this should be down to driving instructors because last weekend I came across a D.I. that didn't know one end of the highway code from the other, let alone what cyclist may or may not do.

As I said, it's not my e-petition, but I thought it was worth supporting, just to get the idea on the agenda. Personally, I'd like to see driving instructors have to pass the full bikeability course, so as to stop fat ignoramii teaching others how to drive badly.

Rankles

As both a commuter and a driver, I'd say most of my problems come from cyclists who don't understand driving theory, blind spots and traffic rules.

And it's these kind of cyclists who give us all a bad name meaning we get put under pressure by cars. Make them take a test!

mouth

Rankles wrote:

As both a commuter and a driver, I'd say most of my problems come from cyclists who don't understand driving theory, blind spots and traffic rules.

And it's these kind of cyclists who give us all a bad name meaning we get put under pressure by cars. Make them take a test!

You mean take a test on a bike? Fully support that. It's impractical for cyclists to have to drive a car on the basis many of them are kids.

I am however a firm believer in the fact we should put our own house in order first, and have compulsory cycling lessons for cyclists before we have compulsory cycling lessons for non-cyclists.

Rankles

Mouth wrote:

Rankles wrote:

As both a commuter and a driver, I'd say most of my problems come from cyclists who don't understand driving theory, blind spots and traffic rules.

And it's these kind of cyclists who give us all a bad name meaning we get put under pressure by cars. Make them take a test!

You mean take a test on a bike? Fully support that. It's impractical for cyclists to have to drive a car on the basis many of them are kids.

Exactly.

I dont believe bike licensing is the answer as I believe you should afford the certain freedom you get on a bike as opposed to a car to bend the rules when it's safe to do so, but I do believe that education is the answer.

I have far less problems as a cyclist with drivers not paying attention than I do as a driver with cyclists thinking they own the road and often just not understanding the rules of the road, for instance. Classic examples such as cutting across traffic over zebra crossings from riding position, overtaking on the left when a car is indicating to turn left, pulling in front of and blocking traffic at a traffic light and straying into the centre of the road.

I do however agree that drivers should have more focus on cyclists in their test. We have to share the road, and we're simply taught to 'keep an eye out in blind spots and check your mirrors'. Great.

shouldbeinbed

For those that never learned to ride a bike?

And why stop a cyclists? Take this to its logical conclusion & you'll have to drive a bus & HGV & do a shift as a black cab driver etc to get an understanding of how everything interacts on the roads & why some react as they do.

We are not a special or more deserving case for unique treatment & its that sort of 'look at me I'm different' attitude that gets peoples backs up along with some of the worst examples of rule bending and frankly cretinous suicidal manoeuvres that cyclists engage in either blissfully unaware of the physics of propelling & stopping a motor vehicle safely or displaying the same: f**k you, I'm going there whether you like it or not arrogance that a tiny (minded) minority of motorists display.

Also do you really think a few months down the line any of that empathy & awareness will remain in the vast majority of qualified drivers? I didn't & can't honestly think any new driver walks out of the test centre thinking : ok thats done, now to be an arrogant impatient dickhead and cause as much mayhem in a car as I can.
Its gradual slippage into lazy bad habits for most, and a few hours on a bike during training won't make a shred of difference to that process.

HebdenBiker

Rankles wrote:

pulling in front of and blocking traffic at a traffic light

Blocking traffic? Cyclists *are* traffic. Motorized vehicles do not have priority, hence no "blocking" is taking place. It is legal and proper for cyclists to filter to the front of traffic queues. Furthermore, it is good safe riding to position yourself in the centre of the lane, rather than in the left-hand gutter. This is why a huge number of junctions now have advanced stop lines for cyclists.

and straying into the centre of the road.

Jeez. Where do I begin?

I agree that education is the answer, in order to challenge widely-held misconceptions like these, that seem to start from the assumption that the cyclist's main duty on the road is to avoid impeding faster vehicles.

Rankles, seriously I'm not having a go at you, but can I suggest that, in the interests of education, and any cyclists that cross your path, that you get a copy of "Cyclecraft" from the library and give it a read?

Initialised

shouldbeinbed wrote:

Its gradual slippage into lazy bad habits for most, and a few hours on a bike during training won't make a shred of difference to that process.

So the way around this is to have drivers retest either at regular 5 or 10 year intervals or after an 'at fault' accident. If we went for 5 year retest for all driver any changes (e.g. the recent rise in cycling) could be reflected in the test.

unixnerd

When I was in Primary 7 the Police came round and did the cycling proficiency with us. I hope this still happens, anyone know?

I think it's a great idea for new drivers to have some time on a cycle first. It may even get a few more folk back onto their bikes. Do any any other countries have something like this?

shouldbeinbed

unixnerd wrote:

When I was in Primary 7 the Police came round and did the cycling proficiency with us. I hope this still happens, anyone know?

Its called bikeability now, nothing to do with the police but neither was my CP in Cambridge 30+ years ago, TBH I'd rather have a cyclist and qualified trainer do it than Joe Cop who may or may not be interested and any good at it

shouldbeinbed

Initialised wrote:

shouldbeinbed wrote:

Its gradual slippage into lazy bad habits for most, and a few hours on a bike during training won't make a shred of difference to that process.

So the way around this is to have drivers retest either at regular 5 or 10 year intervals or after an 'at fault' accident. If we went for 5 year retest for all driver any changes (e.g. the recent rise in cycling) could be reflected in the test.

yes, competency testing and appraisal are a routine part of many jobs/skills based activities, why not driving?

the trouble is I fear the lack of interest from the powers that be in cycling & persuading drivers of their duties and responsibilities towards other road users. I did a speed awareness course recently and not a single mention of cyclists in the whole time. I took it up with the trainers and was pointed towards the DoT to make representation about the content of the course and was repeatedly ignored.

Initialised

unixnerd wrote:

When I was in Primary 7 the Police came round and did the cycling proficiency with us. I hope this still happens, anyone know?

I think it's a great idea for new drivers to have some time on a cycle first. It may even get a few more folk back onto their bikes. Do any any other countries have something like this?

My son did this recently and got a kiddified version of the highway code. The galling thing is that they are not allowed to ride to school until a higher year and the off-road bit he'd used has just been gimped by the council blocking the path at two points. So much for 20% of journeys under 5 miles on bikes.

I think Bikability should be forced on any motorist who is involved in a collision with a cyclist and a more advanced road based training scheme should be mandatory for teens.

Maybe secondary schools could run a cycle to school scheme where you get lunch or shopping vouchers as reward for riding to school/college. But I can see a bunch of 4x4's with loaded bike racks parking up a 100m from the school.

mouth

shouldbeinbed wrote:

I did a speed awareness course recently and not a single mention of cyclists in the whole time. I took it up with the trainers and was pointed towards the DoT to make representation about the content of the course and was repeatedly ignored.

It was a Speed Awareness course, not an "I knocked over a cyclist" course.

Rankles

HebdenBiker wrote:

Rankles wrote:

pulling in front of and blocking traffic at a traffic light

Blocking traffic? Cyclists *are* traffic. Motorized vehicles do not have priority, hence no "blocking" is taking place. It is legal and proper for cyclists to filter to the front of traffic queues. Furthermore, it is good safe riding to position yourself in the centre of the lane, rather than in the left-hand gutter. This is why a huge number of junctions now have advanced stop lines for cyclists.

and straying into the centre of the road.

Jeez. Where do I begin?

I agree that education is the answer, in order to challenge widely-held misconceptions like these, that seem to start from the assumption that the cyclist's main duty on the road is to avoid impeding faster vehicles.

Rankles, seriously I'm not having a go at you, but can I suggest that, in the interests of education, and any cyclists that cross your path, that you get a copy of "Cyclecraft" from the library and give it a read?

Cycling proficiency as I remember it told cyclists to stay left.

The reason we stay left is because we can't pedal at 30-40mph. Just like on a motorway how heavier and slower vehicles must keep left to not impede slower traffic, cyclists should do the same on roads.

Nothing wrong with safely filtering through, but at the front of the line why stay in the centre of the road? You're slowing down other traffic. You wouldn't like it if cars started crawling along the cycle lanes.

HebdenBiker

Rankles wrote:

HebdenBiker wrote:

Rankles wrote:

pulling in front of and blocking traffic at a traffic light

Blocking traffic? Cyclists *are* traffic. Motorized vehicles do not have priority, hence no "blocking" is taking place. It is legal and proper for cyclists to filter to the front of traffic queues. Furthermore, it is good safe riding to position yourself in the centre of the lane, rather than in the left-hand gutter. This is why a huge number of junctions now have advanced stop lines for cyclists.

and straying into the centre of the road.

Jeez. Where do I begin?

I agree that education is the answer, in order to challenge widely-held misconceptions like these, that seem to start from the assumption that the cyclist's main duty on the road is to avoid impeding faster vehicles.

Rankles, seriously I'm not having a go at you, but can I suggest that, in the interests of education, and any cyclists that cross your path, that you get a copy of "Cyclecraft" from the library and give it a read?

Cycling proficiency as I remember it told cyclists to stay left.

The reason we stay left is because we can't pedal at 30-40mph. Just like on a motorway how heavier and slower vehicles must keep left to not impede slower traffic, cyclists should do the same on roads.

Nothing wrong with safely filtering through, but at the front of the line why stay in the centre of the road? You're slowing down other traffic. You wouldn't like it if cars started crawling along the cycle lanes.

The old Cycling Proficiency aimed to communicate a few very simple safety messages to young children. You can't use that as your benchmark for good cycling. As I say - please read Cyclecraft.

Rankles

HebdenBiker wrote:

The old Cycling Proficiency aimed to communicate a few very simple safety messages to young children. You can't use that as your benchmark for good cycling. As I say - please read Cyclecraft.[/quote

I don't need to. I'm a cycling commuter who drives three or four days a week and used to work as a driver. It's basic manners and logic that if you can only move at 15-20mph you need to allow cars travelling at 30-40mph to pass you safely and not block them off.

It's that kind of mentality that causes drivers to get frustrated and angry at all cyclists before they even do anything wrong, and causes a real negative opinion of all of us.

MrChuck

Rankles wrote:

Nothing wrong with safely filtering through, but at the front of the line why stay in the centre of the road? You're slowing down other traffic. You wouldn't like it if cars started crawling along the cycle lanes.

There might be very good reasons for staying in the centre of the lane, depending on the junction. Sometimes it's just where you have to be to make sure cars don't give you problems when it's time to move off. And if that somehow inconveniences drivers (in their minds at least) then I'm afraid it's hard luck.

And cars 'slow down other traffic' when they manoeuvre all the time, and people don't seem to get their knickers in a twist- so why can't I when I'm on my bike?

That said, I don't hold up cars (or anyone else) when I could just as easily not- it's just common courtesy.

Rankles

MrChuck wrote:

Rankles wrote:

Nothing wrong with safely filtering through, but at the front of the line why stay in the centre of the road? You're slowing down other traffic. You wouldn't like it if cars started crawling along the cycle lanes.

There might be very good reasons for staying in the centre of the lane, depending on the junction. Sometimes it's just where you have to be to make sure cars don't give you problems when it's time to move off. And if that somehow inconveniences drivers (in their minds at least) then I'm afraid it's hard luck.

And cars 'slow down other traffic' when they manoeuvre all the time, and people don't seem to get their knickers in a twist- so why can't I when I'm on my bike?

That said, I don't hold up cars (or anyone else) when I could just as easily not- it's just common courtesy.

I'm not saying there aren't situations where you have to take centre lane - such as when approaching a right hand turn, but all too often I see cyclists doing this with no intention of turning, just blindly plodding along in the centre of the road.

MrChuck

Rankles wrote:

MrChuck wrote:

Rankles wrote:

Nothing wrong with safely filtering through, but at the front of the line why stay in the centre of the road? You're slowing down other traffic. You wouldn't like it if cars started crawling along the cycle lanes.

There might be very good reasons for staying in the centre of the lane, depending on the junction. Sometimes it's just where you have to be to make sure cars don't give you problems when it's time to move off. And if that somehow inconveniences drivers (in their minds at least) then I'm afraid it's hard luck.

And cars 'slow down other traffic' when they manoeuvre all the time, and people don't seem to get their knickers in a twist- so why can't I when I'm on my bike?

That said, I don't hold up cars (or anyone else) when I could just as easily not- it's just common courtesy.

I'm not saying there aren't situations where you have to take centre lane - such as when approaching a right hand turn, but all too often I see cyclists doing this with no intention of turning, just blindly plodding along in the centre of the road.

You're right, that's not on.