Suspicious or not? Frame stolen in the looting?

squired

A few bike stores have been turned over in the past few days. As a result (and probably along with other people) I've been keeping an eye out for any adverts that seem a little too good to be true. The following appeared an hour or so ago:

http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/oem-p ... e/84428805

Any thoughts?

jim453

Doesn't look suspect in the slightest. Bit pricey maybe.

Where do you think a 'replica' frame might get looted from?

Also, would you say it was stolen as a complete bike and then stripped down? Not bad going for one of the brain dead morons I saw on TV, They would have struggled to tie the laces on their new trainers.

Wouldn't buy it though.

squired

For example:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... oters.html

From searches on the net, a new Pinarello Dogma Prince frame seems to sell for around £3,000.

Pross

The seller seems reasonably knowledgable, I find it more suspicious when someone advertises it with poor details.

freehub

Bit pricey?? My Planet X cost me 400 and I reckon that frame is loads better.

Gresh

I'd be more worried that he calls it a replica! I'm sure there have been cases of fake Pinarello frames:


http://italiancyclingjournal.blogspot.c ... bikes.html

jim453

squired wrote:

For example:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/lat ... oters.html

From searches on the net, a new Pinarello Dogma Prince frame seems to sell for around £3,000.

But it's not a new Dogma is it. It's a fake Chinese rip off. And advertised as such.

If it had been looted by some pond life I'm sure they would be advertising it as real either because they didn't know or because they wanted to get more for it.

Perhaps you're right though. Maybe it is stolen.

Don't buy it.

jim453

The frame may well be a very good one.

But it isn't really what it says on it and so is not 'worth' the same. Like it or not.

To be honest, I find the whole OEM thing a bit of a minefield.

Just proves we're all getting ripped off I suppose.

morstar

jim453 wrote:

To be honest, I find the whole OEM thing a bit of a minefield.

I'm with you there!

jim453 wrote:

Just proves we're all getting ripped off I suppose.

Well, yes to an extent but you do have to consider R+D. Tooling costs will also be borne by Pinarello.

It's the same as the drug companies argument. Yes the pills are cheap to produce but that's not the tricky bit that costs a stack load of money.

BBH

Not limited to pinarellos now these chinese copies. I introduce..........chinavelo

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2011-TDF-repl ... 45fc5aef82

at least the guys honest in the description I guess!! :roll:

Headhuunter

What's "OEM"?

Yossie

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer.

Cool frame for a budget build though. Someone sling him £200 and its a deal.

Homer J

Headhuunter wrote:

What's "OEM"?

Think they had a few hits in the 80's

Headhuunter

Yossie wrote:

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer.

Cool frame for a budget build though. Someone sling him £200 and its a deal.

So that means it's a fake? Never heard of these OEM frames! Are they safe?

Headhuunter

Homer J wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

What's "OEM"?

Think they had a few hits in the 80's

Think you mean OMD!

carl_p

It's a fake, but not to say someone could build it up to look a nice bike. In this instance the seller seems to have been honest, but one wonders what the buyer will do with it - possibly sell it as a genuine Pinarello Dogma to some poor unsuspecting sod.

There is a 1000 page thread on here about Chinese carbon frames, including a couple of Chinarellos. Doesn't mean they are necessarily unsafe though.

MountainMonster

They are all made in the same factories in the far east, there are no quality problems, other than the standard bad batch or terrible design specifications that can plague any other company as well.

You just save a ton of cash because you don't have to pay the brand for the bike.

guinea

And they really aren't OEM.

jim453

This may be a dumb question but are these OEM frames legal?

Manufacturers are surely not keen on the practice and I would have thought they would be trying to stop factories selling their own, developed and presumably patent protected frames.

What is going on here?

It's alright everyone saying 'they're exactly the same, using the same lay up, same factory etc etc etc etc. But at the end of the day, they don't know that for a fact do they?

If I were an unscrupulous factory owner in China and I thought I could shift a load of frames by saying they were exactly the same as the originals then that's what I'd probably say. Safe in the knowledge that no-one had any recourse to complain at all.

Who knows?

Ben6899

You'd be a fool to think it's a real Pina. It's got a round seat tube for a start.

lvquestpaddler

OMD? REM? ELO? ABC? EMF? OMG? LOL!

Yeah dodgy sellers usually know nothing about what they're trying to flog. Once saw a sea kayak on ebay, very vague non technical description- complete with "compartments for things" rather than the usual "storage hatches"...word got round a forum and hey presto it was indeed stolen as it turns out... 8)

guinea

A frame may carry the designation OEM if it is made by the same manufacturer and is identical to the one sold by the original manufacturer.

These aren't.

These are scams. They are not OEM, they are not made from the same components, processes, moulds or using the same carbon as the original. They factories make far too much money making real pinarellos to make these on the side. They simply would never risk it.

When you buy one of these you are putting yourself into the hands of random guys who make fakes for a living. And let's face it, as far as fakes go these are pretty shoddy.

jim453

Ok

So how can you tell which OEM's to trust?
What is it about the original link that makes you know it is not a true OEM?

Are the 'good' OEM's legal?


Why on earth would any brand name either sanction or even tolerate the selling of it's frames (or any type of product) debranded for a fraction of the cost? whilst allowing it to be known that they are indeed Cervello or Pinarello etc

guinea

There are trustworthy OEMs. However, none of them offer branded goods.

There is a thread in the buying advice section that will show you where some frames come from.

There are no OEM pinarellos, cervelos or colnagos. These are all dodgy knock offs. They don't even look the same.

You're right, the brands would go crazy if the factories sold off unbranded frames. It doesn't happen. However, many brands do just use the standard chinese frame (planet x, ribble, condor) so pick one of those up from source and save a quid or 50.

MrChuck

OEM doesn't mean 'replica'. OEMs aren't copies of the real thing made by somebody else, they are slightly different versions of things made by the original manufacturer for supply direct to companies like Giant, Trek etc. rather than for retail.

For example, I bought some OEM RockShox Reba forks from Merlin. So they're the ones that RockShox supply direct to the manufacturers rather than for retail, and they're not quite the same as the retail ones. But they're still genuine RockShox Rebas.

This is just a different frame with some Pinarello stickers on it, it's nothing to do with OEM.

Blurring the lines slightly are open mold frames, which are made in the same mold as frames for the big names (although not necessarily from the same materials) and can be had for a lot less without the big brand sticker on the tube.

jim453

Thank you,

I'm learning some interesting stuff here.

You say

'A frame may carry the designation OEM if it is made by the same manufacturer and is identical to the one sold by the original manufacturer.'

So these 'generic' Chinese frames must be made to the same specification and in the same factory, subject to the same manufacturing process as one sold by an 'original manufacturer'

Do you have an example of one of those 'original manufacturers'

Also

Is it the same deal with the Chinese wheels that people get badged up as Zipp etc.

And one more, are these products legal?

Ben6899

jim453 wrote:

Ok

So how can you tell which OEM's to trust?
What is it about the original link that makes you know it is not a true OEM?

Are the 'good' OEM's legal?


Why on earth would any brand name either sanction or even tolerate the selling of it's frames (or any type of product) debranded for a fraction of the cost? whilst allowing it to be known that they are indeed Cervello or Pinarello etc

Jim in this case, the "Pina" frame for sale will be symmetrical (genuine Dogmas are asymmetrical) and it also has a perfectly circular seat tube with clamp on front mech whereas the real thing has a tear drop shaped seat tube and a braze on front mech fitting.

MrChuck

jim453 wrote:

'A frame may carry the designation OEM if it is made by the same manufacturer and is identical to the one sold by the original manufacturer.'

I'd take that to mean:

A frame may carry the designation OEM if it is made by 'manufacturing company X' and is identical to the ones also made by 'manufacturing company X' and sold by (say) Pinarello.


If it's made by somebody else then it has no connection with Pinarello so it's not OEM, it's just a fake and all bets are off as far as quality goes. That's not to say they're necessarily crap frames though.

(Pinarello are probably a bad example- as above they'd never stand for it so there's probably no such thing as an OEM Pinarello, but you get the idea!).

PS interesting review covering open mold frames here:
http://road.cc/content/review/37954-onix-azzuro

guinea

MrChuck wrote:

PS interesting review covering open mold frames here:
http://road.cc/content/review/37954-onix-azzuro

The bike in the article is a Hongfu HF-FM001, also used by Planet X.

It's a bona fide OEM bargain. But you will not get the high-end carbon in it.

car.crash

check this one out. no feedback and in london and wants a quick sale.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Boardman-pro- ... 4aadad54bc

peter101cycle

car.crash wrote:

check this one out. no feedback and in london and wants a quick sale.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Boardman-pro- ... 4aadad54bc

LOL, so dodgy it is really funny.