Rim depth

Eyon

I'm going to invest in some deep dish wheels. I'd love to say I'm going to get zipps or something, but no, I'm just going to get some from China. I know they aren't as good as zipps but £250 vs £2500 is hard to complain at! Please do not lecture me on why I need Zipps/HEDs/ENVEs over china rims, that is for another thread no doubt.

However I would like some advise on what depth to buy.

So I can get them in 38mm, 50mm, 60mm, 88mm. I am 86kg, ride in the "hilly"() part of east anglia (about 2000ft climbing a ride is normal for me over 50 miles). I do however often ride in the flat part of east anglia and would struggle to find 500ft of climbing in a similar length ride.

I'm upgrading from Aksiums (they will be night/winter/windy riding wheels) so any weight saving will be massive whatever I would buy. I do not race or TT but want to start both soon as there are regular races locally. I ride slower on week days where I will use my Aksiums and on the weekends I do faster club riding where any extra pace is worth it.

I've pretty much decided that 50mm on the front will be fine, but the rear I am unsure. Obviously I am heavy enough to run a deeper wheel, and there isnt really that much climbing to warrant a super light wheel. Would the aero advantage of a 88mm rear wheel be worth it over the weight? I will not ride these wheels in super strong winds, I'm not that stupid, so would the deep rear wheel be of advantage? Or would I just be all over the place and regret it, and buy 50mm/50mm?

I see the pro's use a lot of Zipp 808-like wheels now days, I am no pro but there must be a reason they use wheels this depth now?

Down the Road

50 front and rear.

Most pro's use these all the time.

Monty Dog

Either your altimeter is bust on your computer or there's a huge hill in East Anglia that no-one knows of! ;-)

I would stick to 50/50 as suggested - running deeper rims can cause handling problems with strong cross-winds and anyway, the air on the backwheel is usually so messed-up that the benefits of aero wheels are less - a deeper rim just adds weight and reduces comfort.

Eyon

Monty Dog wrote:

Either your altimeter is bust on your computer or there's a huge hill in East Anglia that no-one knows of! ;-)

I would stick to 50/50 as suggested - running deeper rims can cause handling problems with strong cross-winds and anyway, the air on the backwheel is usually so messed-up that the benefits of aero wheels are less - a deeper rim just adds weight and reduces comfort.

You say that, but I live right on the cusp of the flat bit, its not too hilly I admit but its not as bad as everyone says. I tend to cycle near the high point of the county which is about 450ft above sea level, and there is a road which will take you into the cambridge area just south of the fens which is just above sea level, in 2 miles, so thats a fairly good climb for the area. In the essex/herts border there are very few roads which are flat, they are slightly up or slightly down, but never flat! Its no wales, its no peaks or lakes, but the area between stansted and saffron walden is not bad, or at least, the best I can get.

So deep rim will be a bad idea. I know its petty but what about the difference between 50mm and 60mm? There is a 63g per rim penalty, will 10mm even make a difference? or will 126g make a difference?

danowat

For just general all round stuff, I'd have said 38mm would suffice.

Ciclicasati

No wind issues with 60mm 404 and cervelo soloist frames, though i am 90kg. That was just the rear though. For a wheelset i would go with 50/50 and you have best of both weight and aero. Plus, it really does make a difference.

dennisn

FWIW I think you're way, way, way, over thinking the whole thing. They are wheels, not magic wands. If you need to really find something that's going to help you go faster, climb better, and beat the clock, then I'd look into a new and improved set of legs and lungs.
Buying all the stuff you're "supposed" to have is great. The manufacturer's will love you, but you won't go much faster. Now, if you're buying strictly for bling / showoff value then you're on the right track.

markos1963

I'd go 50mm front and back as others have said.
Don't be suprised though if you feel no difference in your speed. The benefits are minimal at 'normal' speeds, you'd probably go faster by taking any spacers out from under your stem.

danowat

I think you'd struggle to "prove" any speed differences between 38 - 50, and when you chuck hills into the mix, aero benefits become less and less.

That said, for pure bling value, the deeper the better, heck, go for a tri-spoke front and a disc rear

Eyon

dennisn wrote:

FWIW I think you're way, way, way, over thinking the whole thing. They are wheels, not magic wands. If you need to really find something that's going to help you go faster, climb better, and beat the clock, then I'd look into a new and improved set of legs and lungs.
Buying all the stuff you're "supposed" to have is great. The manufacturer's will love you, but you won't go much faster. Now, if you're buying strictly for bling / showoff value then you're on the right track.

You're quite right, my legs and lungs could do with being better (though my lung capacity and PEF are higher than average by quite an amount), and I would see more speed by simply training more. However, manufacturer's wont love me as I'm buying cheap china stuff, and yes, I do want it more for the looks right now. I'm going to get a nice carbon bike I'd like the whole thing to look the part, not have a great looking frame with a pair of £70 second hand Aksiums on it! I also want the speed increase, but there is no harm in wanting nice wheels is there, and making sure I get the right ones?

If we all bought to our own levels it would be boring!

Monty Dog

FWIW I don't really notice the benefit of aerowheels when racing unless exceeding speeds of 50kph - and then it's only in terms of keeping the wheels moving at that speed - rather than getting them to that speed in the first place, but then it might be the drafting effect of a big pack. Also is the ability to maintain high speed on descents i.e. you don't slow down as quickly, but as others have said, if you haven't got the heart, lungs and legs to get you that fast, they ain't going to make much difference.

dreamlx10

I'm going to invest in some deep dish wheels

What kind, Pizza ?

dennisn

Eyon wrote:

dennisn wrote:

FWIW I think you're way, way, way, over thinking the whole thing. They are wheels, not magic wands. If you need to really find something that's going to help you go faster, climb better, and beat the clock, then I'd look into a new and improved set of legs and lungs.
Buying all the stuff you're "supposed" to have is great. The manufacturer's will love you, but you won't go much faster. Now, if you're buying strictly for bling / showoff value then you're on the right track.

You're quite right, my legs and lungs could do with being better (though my lung capacity and PEF are higher than average by quite an amount), and I would see more speed by simply training more. However, manufacturer's wont love me as I'm buying cheap china stuff, and yes, I do want it more for the looks right now. I'm going to get a nice carbon bike I'd like the whole thing to look the part, not have a great looking frame with a pair of £70 second hand Aksiums on it! I also want the speed increase, but there is no harm in wanting nice wheels is there, and making sure I get the right ones?

If we all bought to our own levels it would be boring!

Well, since you want to look the part I'd say you're headed in the right direction. Spend as much as you can on the shiny, very latest bling you can afford. However if you're looking to BUY speed then the only really good idea is to pay a good coach to PROPERLY train you. That's the way it works. Lots of people put shiny chrome wheels on their cars but none of those cars go any faster because of it. It's pretty much all about the motor.

mroli

The carbon wheels are v shiney though... BTW - Carbonzone out of 50mm clinchers, only have 60mm left if that was a consideration (other suppliers may provide!)

Ciclicasati

dennisn wrote:

FWIW I think you're way, way, way, over thinking the whole thing. They are wheels, not magic wands. If you need to really find something that's going to help you go faster, climb better, and beat the clock, then I'd look into a new and improved set of legs and lungs.

But provided you have a big enough engine to get yourself to 18-20mph on the flat you will get to 25 more easily and then be able to hold it and push towards 30 more easily. I had some 404 and noticed the improvement and now reverted to ksyrium sl's and now notice the difference.

Ciclicasati

dennisn wrote:

FWIW I think you're way, way, way, over thinking the whole thing. They are wheels, not magic wands. If you need to really find something that's going to help you go faster, climb better, and beat the clock, then I'd look into a new and improved set of legs and lungs.

But provided you have a big enough engine to get yourself to 18-20mph on the flat you will get to 25 more easily and then be able to hold it and push towards 30 more easily. I had some 404 and noticed the improvement and now reverted to ksyrium sl's and now notice the difference.

dennisn

Ciclicasati wrote:

dennisn wrote:

FWIW I think you're way, way, way, over thinking the whole thing. They are wheels, not magic wands. If you need to really find something that's going to help you go faster, climb better, and beat the clock, then I'd look into a new and improved set of legs and lungs.

But provided you have a big enough engine to get yourself to 18-20mph on the flat you will get to 25 more easily and then be able to hold it and push towards 30 more easily. I had some 404 and noticed the improvement and now reverted to ksyrium sl's and now notice the difference.

I disagree. The motor will get you to 25 or 30 a whole lot easier than any wheel ever will.
To get to 25, and hold it for any lenght of time, you'd better be in a pace line or have a great tailwind or be areo as hell, AND have the legs. Wheels, no matter what the advertisements say, simply won't get you there.

Eyon

OK so ignoring the fact that my legs may or may not be able to hold 25mph, what is my best option? Say hypothetically I borrowed Cav's or Hoy's legs when I went out riding, and I wanted the right set of wheels to keep me at speed, what do I go for?

I make no qualms about it, I want my bike to look good, who doesn't? And deep rims just look cool! but also I want the performance, no point looking good if you hate every second you have to lugg extra sized wheels around is there

rolf_f

Eyon wrote:

OK so ignoring the fact that my legs may or may not be able to hold 25mph, what is my best option? Say hypothetically I borrowed Cav's or Hoy's legs when I went out riding, and I wanted the right set of wheels to keep me at speed, what do I go for?

Shallow rims that weigh the least - and they look cooler than deep section rims

Supergoose

Rolf F wrote:

Eyon wrote:

OK so ignoring the fact that my legs may or may not be able to hold 25mph, what is my best option? Say hypothetically I borrowed Cav's or Hoy's legs when I went out riding, and I wanted the right set of wheels to keep me at speed, what do I go for?

Shallow rims that weigh the least - and they look cooler than deep section rims

^ This.
Deep section road wheels are so last year. All the cool kids leave the party first, blaze the trail.

Low profile for the win.

Deep sections for time trials low profiles for road racing.

dennisn

Eyon wrote:

OK so ignoring the fact that my legs may or may not be able to hold 25mph, what is my best option?

Obviously you're not going to believe it when most people tell you that you can't buy fast, you have to invest in yourself for that. But, you think what you want and go out and buy the stuff that you feel will make you look good AND go fast all in one. I mention this only because in all your posts you never mention nutrition, rest, PROPER training, and making your engine stronger. It's been about you showing off and not having a clue about actually going faster. Sorry.

Eyon

Thank you for your wise knowledge Dennisn. The whole point of this thread was not to be told why I shouldn't spend my money on wheels and why I should improve my fitness, it was created to find what wheels I should/should not get. I know I must improve my fitness but as this is the road buying section I thought it would be a valid place to find some information regarding what rim depth would be best suited for the style of riding of which I ride.

As technically you have no idea about my fitness, speed, diet, sleep patterns and training practises I'm not sure you really have the right to tell me that I dont have a clue about going faster and why I am only interested in showing off? Some of us like nice stuff that we don't necessarily need, just because you do not agree that I need it does not mean I need to be told that I'm clueless. The reason I dont mention nutrition is more down to the fact that has nothing to do with wheel choice, if I wanted to know what to have for breakfast to make me a little faster I'd most likely ask, but I dont, so I wont.

To the non patronising and helpful people, thank you, I will invest in 50mm I think

dennisn

Eyon wrote:

......... as this is the road buying section I thought it would be a valid place to find some information regarding what rim depth would be best suited for the style of riding of which I ride.

Just how would you describe this "style of riding" of yours? :roll: :roll:

Eyon

As stated in my first post, fairly flat or rolling terrain, doing fast club riding on weekend. Average speed in flat rides is 20mph or so, in rolling this drops to 18. Not racing but want to get into it as there are local road races and weekly time trials.

joeyhalloran

Eyon wrote:

Thank you for your wise knowledge Dennisn. The whole point of this thread was not to be told why I shouldn't spend my money on wheels and why I should improve my fitness, it was created to find what wheels I should/should not get. I know I must improve my fitness but as this is the road buying section I thought it would be a valid place to find some information regarding what rim depth would be best suited for the style of riding of which I ride.

As technically you have no idea about my fitness, speed, diet, sleep patterns and training practises I'm not sure you really have the right to tell me that I dont have a clue about going faster and why I am only interested in showing off? Some of us like nice stuff that we don't necessarily need, just because you do not agree that I need it does not mean I need to be told that I'm clueless. The reason I dont mention nutrition is more down to the fact that has nothing to do with wheel choice, if I wanted to know what to have for breakfast to make me a little faster I'd most likely ask, but I dont, so I wont.

To the non patronising and helpful people, thank you, I will invest in 50mm I think

Good on you for this post, I don't see why some people are so against you getting these wheels.


Deep wheels clearly make some difference and this poster has decided that this difference (along with the look of his bike) is worth the price of the wheels, who is anyone to correct him?!

dennisn

JoeyHalloran wrote:

Eyon wrote:

Thank you for your wise knowledge Dennisn. The whole point of this thread was not to be told why I shouldn't spend my money on wheels and why I should improve my fitness, it was created to find what wheels I should/should not get. I know I must improve my fitness but as this is the road buying section I thought it would be a valid place to find some information regarding what rim depth would be best suited for the style of riding of which I ride.

As technically you have no idea about my fitness, speed, diet, sleep patterns and training practises I'm not sure you really have the right to tell me that I dont have a clue about going faster and why I am only interested in showing off? Some of us like nice stuff that we don't necessarily need, just because you do not agree that I need it does not mean I need to be told that I'm clueless. The reason I dont mention nutrition is more down to the fact that has nothing to do with wheel choice, if I wanted to know what to have for breakfast to make me a little faster I'd most likely ask, but I dont, so I wont.

To the non patronising and helpful people, thank you, I will invest in 50mm I think

Good on you for this post, I don't see why some people are so against you getting these wheels.


Deep wheels clearly make some difference and this poster has decided that this difference (along with the look of his bike) is worth the price of the wheels, who is anyone to correct him?!

You're absolutely right. Who am I to say he's wrong? FWIW it really bothers me when someone gets sucked in by all the wheel, bike, and component advertising bullsh*t and starts to believe it. It's just not right and I usually find myself saying something about it. Sorry.

joeyhalloran

I agree with you, I get annoyed by a lot of the hype surrounding the latest product (19% stiffer, saves an extra 2 sec/Km etc...) but in the end it is the customers money.

stoobydale

Get some handbuilts made up with kinlin XR300 front and XR380 back. Look good come in reasonably cheap, aluminium so no messing with carbon pads if you like to swap wheels. I made some up last winter and think they are great, much prefer the look and feel to my Spinergy 50mm PBO wheels. Come in at about 1500g so not lightweights but ideal for the larger/sprinter type rider (IMO).

FransJacques

You're making a pretty basic assumption with the following:
"Please do not lecture me on why I need Zipps/HEDs/ENVEs over china rims, that is for another thread no doubt."

Your stated objective is aerodynamics however you're assuming that generic and name brand rims are perfect subsititues, which betrays your ignorance. You focus on rim depth rather than shape. There are aero and there are deep rimmed wheels, they are not always the same.

What are your thoughts on the different shapes out there? Which one will help you best? Which one works best with the particular brand of tubs/clinchers you use?

A fool and his money are soon parted.

Eyon

FransJacques wrote:

You're making a pretty basic assumption with the following:
"Please do not lecture me on why I need Zipps/HEDs/ENVEs over china rims, that is for another thread no doubt."

Your stated objective is aerodynamics however you're assuming that generic and name brand rims are perfect subsititues, which betrays your ignorance. You focus on rim depth rather than shape. There are aero and there are deep rimmed wheels, they are not always the same.

What are your thoughts on the different shapes out there? Which one will help you best? Which one works best with the particular brand of tubs/clinchers you use?

A fool and his money are soon parted.

Thank you for your post, really appreciate it, I was surprised it took so long for someone to tell me that I shouldn't buy from China!

For what its worth, Zipp may spend thousands and thousands testing their rims in wind tunnels, and sure they evidence pays off, but who is to say the Chinese is bad? Their rims are pretty much a strait copy of the Toroidal section used in the current 101/202/303/1080 wheels... OK it might not have the dimpled surfaces which zipp use, but the skin friction drag on a 50mm wheel isnt all that great, so if we take pressure drag as our main source of aerodynamic drag that is all down to shape, and if its a toroidal copy, then, well, I should be fine? Also for this purpose lets ignore wave drag as at 20-25mph I really wouldnt be worrying about that.

I know that's a very basic way of looking at it, but lets be realistic, none of us have wind tunnels, most of us will never use one. I doubt Zipp or any of the big makers will release details on the .cd of their products and as none of us have the ability to test that, it all makes the scientific debate about what rim is better totally irrelevant? Generally speaking surface drag must be less than pressure drag for the rim to worth being deeper. As wheels have such little surface we can almost assume surface drag is not worth thinking about and therefore we worry about pressure drag. Pressure drag is effected by shape and generally speaking the thinner the section in relation to its depth is more aerodynamic, especially in symmetrical section. I know there are exceptions to the rule but for the purpose of this argument we can therefore assume that given a fixed thickness of wheel section, the deeper the wheel, the more aerodynamic, so long as the shape is suitable in the first place.

I might be wrong here, and will happily be corrected.

Therefore I can conclude that yes, I might be a fool, but at least I am only a fool who parts with £250 rather than £2500! Try telling me that the generic wheels are 10 times lesser performing than the expensive stuff?

Cubic

Eyon wrote:

FransJacques wrote:

You're making a pretty basic assumption with the following:
"Please do not lecture me on why I need Zipps/HEDs/ENVEs over china rims, that is for another thread no doubt."

Your stated objective is aerodynamics however you're assuming that generic and name brand rims are perfect subsititues, which betrays your ignorance. You focus on rim depth rather than shape. There are aero and there are deep rimmed wheels, they are not always the same.

What are your thoughts on the different shapes out there? Which one will help you best? Which one works best with the particular brand of tubs/clinchers you use?

A fool and his money are soon parted.

Thank you for your post, really appreciate it, I was surprised it took so long for someone to tell me that I shouldn't buy from China!

For what its worth, Zipp may spend thousands and thousands testing their rims in wind tunnels, and sure they evidence pays off, but who is to say the Chinese is bad? Their rims are pretty much a strait copy of the Toroidal section used in the current 101/202/303/1080 wheels... OK it might not have the dimpled surfaces which zipp use, but the skin friction drag on a 50mm wheel isnt all that great, so if we take pressure drag as our main source of aerodynamic drag that is all down to shape, and if its a toroidal copy, then, well, I should be fine? Also for this purpose lets ignore wave drag as at 20-25mph I really wouldnt be worrying about that.

I know that's a very basic way of looking at it, but lets be realistic, none of us have wind tunnels, most of us will never use one. I doubt Zipp or any of the big makers will release details on the .cd of their products and as none of us have the ability to test that, it all makes the scientific debate about what rim is better totally irrelevant? Generally speaking surface drag must be less than pressure drag for the rim to worth being deeper. As wheels have such little surface we can almost assume surface drag is not worth thinking about and therefore we worry about pressure drag. Pressure drag is effected by shape and generally speaking the thinner the section in relation to its depth is more aerodynamic, especially in symmetrical section. I know there are exceptions to the rule but for the purpose of this argument we can therefore assume that given a fixed thickness of wheel section, the deeper the wheel, the more aerodynamic, so long as the shape is suitable in the first place.

I might be wrong here, and will happily be corrected.

Therefore I can conclude that yes, I might be a fool, but at least I am only a fool who parts with £250 rather than £2500! Try telling me that the generic wheels are 10 times lesser performing than the expensive stuff?

Pwned!