Post Tour criteriums fixed

Salsiccia

Maybe it's just me, but I find a warm reassurance in the post-tour criteriums and their nature. I think it's nice that there's still room for crowd-pleasing and for knowledgeable fans to be able to show their appreciation for good riders who have performed well in the tour. Everyone knows the score: the riders, the sponsors, the fans. I like that.

knedlicky

FJS wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

Sorry, but I don’t think even the Belgian-Dutch post-Tour criteriums are fixed nowadays.

Did you read the McEwen cyclesportmag article?
I'm not sure how organizers 'proposing' the contents of the breakaway and/or first over the line amounts to 'not fixed', but I'm sure arrangements go much further than that.

I think the organisers expect certain riders to be prominent and realize there is a sort of hierarchy pecking order but I mostly think it’s that many riders don’t take things that seriously enough to want to upset the cart, rather than the races are truly fixed. Maybe this idea, and the angular narrow route of many a criterium assisting this, will persuade you an Evans can beat a Gilbert?
As for McEwen, I don’t think of him as the most reliable source.

FJS wrote:

The prize money/start money figures you mention could be at the root of the confusion - these figures are way off. Evans asked about €55,000 start money this year, Gilbert, Schleck, Contador etc probably around half that, Hoogerland €8,000. In 2004 apparently Armstrong got €100,000 start money in just one criterium.

I recognise my first guess at the amount of appearance money was low, but I have great doubts about the validity of some of your figures.

One can estimate what the income of the organisers is:
At a typical small town criterium (my example is based on figures from the criterium at Surhuisterveen), sponsors pay between about 150 and 1000 €, depending on what they want. Typically, sponsorship of 150 € does just for mention in the event website, while sponsorship of 1000 € would get the same plus a weblink, and also, at the actual event , an advert in the event programme, an audible advertising spot through the loudspeakers, a couple of banners hung up outside, logo stickers on 4 publicity caravan cars, logo stickers in the beer tent and on the podium background wall, a mention in the event newspaper, and 4 free tickets to the exclusive spectator seating at the finish line.
For a figure in between, like 500 €, the sponsor gets a reduced version of the 1000 € deal, like the same except no banners, logo stickers only on 1 publicity caravan car and none in the beer tent or on the podium background wall, and only 2 free tickets to the exclusive spectator seating.

Often the organisers will also offer a variety of sponsorship deals so there are in all about 10-12 options within the 150-1000 € range.
If an event gets 15 sponsors choosing the more expensive deals, 15 choosing the intermediate ones and 100 choosing the simplest, then the organisers’ income is probably in the region of 40-50,000 €, and that before they then deduct their own expenses and profit.

So (to use the example of the Sint-Niklaas criterium last Friday), whether an organiser can then afford Evans, Gilbert, McEwen, De Gendt, Vanendert and Morabito, all ’fresh‘ from the Tour, at the prices you suggest, seems unlikely.

FJS

knedlicky wrote:

I think the organisers expect certain riders to be prominent and realize there is a sort of hierarchy pecking order but I mostly think it’s that many riders don’t take things that seriously enough to want to upset the cart, rather than the races are truly fixed. Maybe this idea, and the angular narrow route of many a criterium assisting this, will persuade you an Evans can beat a Gilbert?

No. And certainly not a Schleck, Sastre or Vanendert beat a Cavendish, Farrar or Roelandts.

knedlicky wrote:

As for McEwen, I don’t think of him as the most reliable source.

It's not McEwen's view, it's a journalist's very detailed account following him during various criteriums for several days.

knedlicky wrote:

I recognise my first guess at the amount of appearance money was low, but I have great doubts about the validity of some of your figures.

These sums are discussed every year in the Dutch and Flemish media. E.g. http://www.omroepbrabant.nl/?news/15890 ... nnaar.aspx
http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2844/Arc ... nste.dhtml

But never mind, each is free to believe what they want to believe.

afx237vi

They're just the cycling equivalent of all these pre-season football tournaments that have cropped up all over the world in recent years.

Man U / AC Milan / Barcelona etc turn up in Miami / Hong Kong / Sydney etc, have a bit of a kickabout, there's a trophy at the end, then they go home and the real business begins. The fans have had a day out, they've seen their favourite stars who they would never otherwise had a chance to see, they've bought their overpriced merchandise and they've gone home happy. Neither the teams nor the fans give a hoot about the actual result of the match, but who cares?

knedlicky

FJS wrote:

But never mind, each is free to believe what they want to believe.

Whether the McEwen story or the Dutch articles about post-Tour criteriums, it seems you rely for your information on journalists (who often sensationalise) and their informants (who mostly exaggerate things to suit their cause).
Isn’t there always a risk there!

Also, the second linked Dutch article states that the days when a rider could get 75,000 Guilder, about 30,000 € (Ullrich, 1997) are long gone. Which also suggests your figures are way too high, and that the journalist ought to get more informed.

My info about the organiser’s income was directly from them, as in the contracts they arrange with sponsors, albeit without them disclosing exact figures, thus my estimates based on interpretation of the info they provided.

I admit that I didn’t include all the possible income of organisers, for instance there is a small charge for the event programmes sold, and maybe the brewery with the beer tent and the stands selling sausages, etc, also contribute - although I suspect they contribute more to the local community, for temporary licences and to cover the costs of policing and clean-up afterwards.

But never mind, each is free to believe what they want to believe.

knedlicky

afx237vi wrote:

They're just the cycling equivalent of all these pre-season football tournaments that have cropped up all over the world in recent years.

Thank you for the analogy, I think it’s pretty accurate. The football teams don’t think it essential to win, but neither are the tournaments ‘fixed’.
Although that doesn't mean the matches don't always lack tenancity and competitiveness, because they sometimes do.
And I think the same occurs at some, if nor all, post-Tour criteriums.

DeadCalm

Funnily enough and for what it's worth, in the latest issue of Le Sport Velo there is an interview with one Julien Baudru the organiser of a criterium at Quillan in which he speaks of the difficulties he faces. He states that Indurain used to ask 40,000 to 50,000 Euros but only the top Dutch criteriums can pay that anymore. He also says that, to attract Contador or Schleck, it would cost a lot more than 20,000 Euros. He says that a top French rider would charge between 7,000 and 15,000 Euros.

He also talks about a memorable edition which included Virenque and Chiapucci. Apparently, the boss of the main sponsor requested that Virenque win but Chiapucci wouldn't play ball and to the dismay of his client, took the victory in a sprint.

jerry3571

I always thought it was a way that the big guys can boost thier earnings after the Tour's prize money is all dished out amongst the Team and staff. It's almost the top guys had the glory at the Tour but had to wait for a bit of money in riding these events. This is just a supplement to thier pay packet after doing the job at the TDF.
Chiappucci was always a bit of a rogue element in most situations in road racing so it makes me smile knowing he forgot the script in not not winning. :twisted:
He kissed my sister at the Tour de France once; can't imagine Leipheimer doing that as he doesn't like touching the germ infested public. Jesper Skibby was partial to my sister too!:roll:

-Jerry

OffTheBackAdam

I remember seeing Chiappucci at the World's Cyclocross in Leeds. He smiled as he went by us, to the serenade of "You're last, you're last"
Jerry - we need pictures of your sister!

No_Ta_Doctor

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

I remember seeing Chiappucci at the World's Cyclocross in Leeds. He smiled as he went by us, to the serenade of "You're last, you're last"
Jerry - we need pictures of your sister!

Couldn't find a pic of Jerry's sister, so you'll have to make do with a pic of Jesper Skibby instead :-)

jerry3571

Sorry but the interest in my sister is a little beyond me so not spoil your illusions, try to think your favourite Podium Girl to keep the magic alive.
Sorry to not provide any photos of my sister but I'm doing you a favour!

-Jerry