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Blackfriars Bridge: The Final Stand

HeadhuunterHeadhuunter Posts: 6,494
edited August 2011 in Commuting chat
2 "go slow" rides across Blackfriars Bridge - Critical Mass on Fri at 6pm and then 8.15am on Mon morning.

http://ibikelondon.blogspot.com/2011/07 ... riars.html

Personally I think that 20mph limits are pointless because the police don’t even enforce 30mph limits. In the time that construction of Blackfriars stn has taken place and the 20mph limit has been in place, I have never seen anyone actually drive at 20 or less and I quite often ride across Bfriars heading south….

There have been 20mph limits on all residential roads in Lewisham borough for a couple of years now but they ar not enforced and no one takes a blind bit of notice of them. I also think that trying to keep a car at 20mph is actually quite difficult and would mean drivers more focused on the speedo than the road ahead.

However I DO believe that there should be decent width cycle lanes on bridges like B/friars and I am a bit alarmed at the suggestion that cycle lanes across London Br will be scrapped…
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  • iPeteiPete Posts: 6,076
    edited July 2011
    2 "go slow" rides across Blackfriars Bridge - Critical Mass on Fri at 6pm and then 8.15am on Mon morning.

    http://ibikelondon.blogspot.com/2011/07 ... riars.html

    Personally I think that 20mph limits are pointless because the police don’t even enforce 30mph limits. In the time that construction of Blackfriars stn has taken place and the 20mph limit has been in place, I have never seen anyone actually drive at 20 or less and I quite often ride across Bfriars heading south….

    There have been 20mph limits on all residential roads in Lewisham borough for a couple of years now but they ar not enforced and no one takes a blind bit of notice of them. I also think that trying to keep a car at 20mph is actually quite difficult and would mean drivers more focused on the speedo than the road ahead.

    However I DO believe that there should be decent width cycle lanes on bridges like B/friars and I am a bit alarmed at the suggestion that cycle lanes across London Br will be scrapped…

    I attended the last go slow as arranged by LCC and there was a lot of focus on the 20mph, ok I s'pose but the real issue is for people turning right at either end of the bridge.

    The proposed removal of the cycle lane was revoked and re-instated but its (probably) going to be little more than a blue strip with little thought to keep people happy. For less experienced riders heading north the left turn onto embankment still poses a big risk.

    I didn't realise work was starting this weekend, I had thought the issues had finally been acknowledged, I guess not!

    http://lcc.org.uk/articles/all-party-su ... s-junction

    http://lcc.org.uk/articles/boris-says-m ... road-users
  • W1W1 Posts: 2,636
    I also think that trying to keep a car at 20mph is actually quite difficult and would mean drivers more focused on the speedo than the road ahead.

    However I DO believe that there should be decent width cycle lanes on bridges like B/friars and I am a bit alarmed at the suggestion that cycle lanes across London Br will be scrapped…

    Not to mention that a number of cyclists would also be breaching a 20mph limit.

    Can't argue with the cycle lanes point though.
  • roger_merrimanroger_merriman Posts: 6,147
    the way the various cycling media have being focusing on the speed limit being reinstated and being disingenuous about it is frankly, let be kind and say foolish.

    The issue is the Junction which is a confusing mess. That is what needs to be focused on, not that the speed limit is being reinstated, from it's temporary measure.
  • KoncordskiKoncordski Posts: 1,009
    Can't get along there friday night but would be passing that way on monday morning anyway so will lend some support.

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  • HeadhuunterHeadhuunter Posts: 6,494
    W1 wrote:
    I also think that trying to keep a car at 20mph is actually quite difficult and would mean drivers more focused on the speedo than the road ahead.

    However I DO believe that there should be decent width cycle lanes on bridges like B/friars and I am a bit alarmed at the suggestion that cycle lanes across London Br will be scrapped…

    Not to mention that a number of cyclists would also be breaching a 20mph limit.

    Can't argue with the cycle lanes point though.

    I doubt many cyclists get over 20mph on the bridge as a fair chunk of it is slightly uphill in both directions, clearly it rolls back down the other side, but there's probably not enough downhill to significantly get over 20 before you hit traffic lights and cars queuing. IME crossing BB, cyclists generally slow to a crawl. It's the same across London Bridge which definitely has an uphill pick up heading north....
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  • HeadhuunterHeadhuunter Posts: 6,494
    iPete wrote:
    2 "go slow" rides across Blackfriars Bridge - Critical Mass on Fri at 6pm and then 8.15am on Mon morning.

    http://ibikelondon.blogspot.com/2011/07 ... riars.html

    Personally I think that 20mph limits are pointless because the police don’t even enforce 30mph limits. In the time that construction of Blackfriars stn has taken place and the 20mph limit has been in place, I have never seen anyone actually drive at 20 or less and I quite often ride across Bfriars heading south….

    There have been 20mph limits on all residential roads in Lewisham borough for a couple of years now but they ar not enforced and no one takes a blind bit of notice of them. I also think that trying to keep a car at 20mph is actually quite difficult and would mean drivers more focused on the speedo than the road ahead.

    However I DO believe that there should be decent width cycle lanes on bridges like B/friars and I am a bit alarmed at the suggestion that cycle lanes across London Br will be scrapped…

    I attended the last go slow as arranged by LCC and there was a lot of focus on the 20mph, ok I s'pose but the real issue is for people turning right at either end of the bridge.

    The proposed removal of the cycle lane was revoked and re-instated but its (probably) going to be little more than a blue strip with little thought to keep people happy. For less experienced riders heading north the left turn onto embankment still poses a big risk.

    I didn't realise work was starting this weekend, I had thought the issues had finally been acknowledged, I guess not!

    http://lcc.org.uk/articles/all-party-su ... s-junction

    http://lcc.org.uk/articles/boris-says-m ... road-users

    It certainly sounds like the cycle lanes will be a shadow of their former selves with an increase in space for cars to 3 lanes:

    "cycle lanes will be squeezed and shoved to one side, carriageways for cars will increase from two lanes to three. "
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  • notsobluenotsoblue Posts: 5,838
    This is pretty shocking. I'll be there on Friday evening.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 22,800 Lives Here
    Regarding 20mpn limits. The council waanted to put speed bumps along my road. One of the reasons cited by the council was that the police wouldn't enforce a 20mph limit without traffic calming measures to back it up. Presumably there is no plan for speed bumps on Blacfriars Bridge so the limit wouldn't be enforced anyway.
  • iPeteiPete Posts: 6,076
    It would be great for this to get better interest from the more hardcore and general commuters, part of me doesn't give a hoot but part of me realises that my friends and colleagues who aren't as comfortable on the streets use this route.

    May have to try and attend again, probably Monday.
  • veronese68 wrote:
    Regarding 20mpn limits. The council waanted to put speed bumps along my road. One of the reasons cited by the council was that the police wouldn't enforce a 20mph limit without traffic calming measures to back it up. Presumably there is no plan for speed bumps on Blacfriars Bridge so the limit wouldn't be enforced anyway.
    There is a 20 mph zone for approx 200 metres on the A237 north of Coulsdon. There are no traffic calming measures except for the speed camera. Two schools have their entrances on what are in effect dead end roads that empty into that section - so that is presumably the reason for the limit.

    If that is the reason given by your council, then perhaps they need to talk to Croydon about what they have done there.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 22,800 Lives Here
    veronese68 wrote:
    Regarding 20mpn limits. The council waanted to put speed bumps along my road. One of the reasons cited by the council was that the police wouldn't enforce a 20mph limit without traffic calming measures to back it up. Presumably there is no plan for speed bumps on Blacfriars Bridge so the limit wouldn't be enforced anyway.
    There is a 20 mph zone for approx 200 metres on the A237 north of Coulsdon. There are no traffic calming measures except for the speed camera. Two schools have their entrances on what are in effect dead end roads that empty into that section - so that is presumably the reason for the limit.

    If that is the reason given by your council, then perhaps they need to talk to Croydon about what they have done there.

    I wouldn't be surprised if it was flannel to try to force the measures through. 80% response rate to the survey. Only 1 person in favour, all the rest against. 7 out of 15 councillors still tried to force it through. Figures were quoted about the accident rates and so on. When somebody asked if any of the accidents were on roads with traffic calming, the answer was all of them.
  • iPeteiPete Posts: 6,076
    Bumpage

    Announced by LCC, may poodle past on the Brommie..

    http://lcc.org.uk/articles/london-cycli ... friday-6pm
  • fnegronifnegroni Posts: 794
    What cycle lane on London Bridge? You mean the bus lane?
  • BassjunkieukBassjunkieuk Posts: 4,232
    I think one of the most laughable bits of this whole Blackfriar's Bridge protest (asides from TFL steamrollering ahead despite the whole world and his dog being against it....) is the fact that their own press release states they expect a massive increase in pedestrians after the station is renovated (up from 25K to around 40K I believe where the figures quoted) and yet they think the best way to make this junction safer for ALL road users is to add an additional lane for cars AND raise the speed limit?

    I don't often have to use BB but have been over it a couple of times on charity rides and can see how it would be rather tricky for a lesser experienced rider (as iPete points out most of us probably fall into the more experienced/confident end of cycle commuters....)

    Unfortunately though TFL seem to be flying the "Car is King" flag again and they'll be damned if they are going to be seen to hinder the progress of those on 4 wheels and they certainly won't let a small matter of something like cyclist and pedestrian safety stand in the way of their grand plans.
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  • chillingchilling Posts: 267
    I bet they need that third lane for an 'Olympic lane' come the day.
  • richVSrichrichVSrich Posts: 527
    I'll be there this evening...will make me late for a mates bday though...wanted to leave earlyish today :S

    Might do a few laps over the bridge to kill time if i get there early :P

    ive actually never ridden over the bridge, i usually just head down embankment so this should be interesting, that junction is a bloomin mess though
  • GussioGussio Posts: 2,452
    Unfortunately though TFL seem to be flying the "Car is King" flag again and they'll be damned if they are going to be seen to hinder the progress of those on 4 wheels and they certainly won't let a small matter of something like cyclist and pedestrian safety stand in the way of their grand plans.

    Sadly, this is the nub of it. Very well put.
  • il_principeil_principe Posts: 9,146
    Gussio wrote:
    Unfortunately though TFL seem to be flying the "Car is King" flag again and they'll be damned if they are going to be seen to hinder the progress of those on 4 wheels and they certainly won't let a small matter of something like cyclist and pedestrian safety stand in the way of their grand plans.

    Sadly, this is the nub of it. Very well put.

    +1 I'm going along. Primarily because of the point made above, but also because I'm fed up with TFL. They are ignoring everyone on this, including the (democratically elected) London assembly. They seem to have a hard on for making things easier for drivers and tougher for everyone else and I'm fed up with it. Those who don't cycle in my office don't because of fear, and it's junctions like Blackfriars, E&C etc that scare them off. I don't really have an issue with navigating these areas with fast moving traffic - I ride round the Wandsworth gyratory (London's most ridiculous & depressing road system) and roundabout every day, but appreciate that roads like this represent huge mental and physical barriers to those who TFL should be encouraging onto their bikes.

    Also I've never been on a protest and am intrigued!
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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 18,008
    All part of 'ending the war on motorists' as it was infamously phrased. I have a meeting last thing this evening, but if I'm lucky, should be able to make it.
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  • HeadhuunterHeadhuunter Posts: 6,494
    Gussio wrote:
    Unfortunately though TFL seem to be flying the "Car is King" flag again and they'll be damned if they are going to be seen to hinder the progress of those on 4 wheels and they certainly won't let a small matter of something like cyclist and pedestrian safety stand in the way of their grand plans.

    Sadly, this is the nub of it. Very well put.

    +1 I'm going along. Primarily because of the point made above, but also because I'm fed up with TFL. They are ignoring everyone on this, including the (democratically elected) London assembly. They seem to have a hard on for making things easier for drivers and tougher for everyone else and I'm fed up with it. Those who don't cycle in my office don't because of fear, and it's junctions like Blackfriars, E&C etc that scare them off. I don't really have an issue with navigating these areas with fast moving traffic - I ride round the Wandsworth gyratory (London's most ridiculous & depressing road system) and roundabout every day, but appreciate that roads like this represent huge mental and physical barriers to those who TFL should be encouraging onto their bikes.

    Also I've never been on a protest and am intrigued!

    There's been a change of government which has aligned transport towards the car. Lord Adonis of the Labour govt for all his faults was a huge advocate of the bike. Now we have Philip Hamilton (Tory) who has declared an end to the "war on the motorist" and we have Kulveer Ranger and Boris Johnson in London who have stated that they intend to improve traffic flow in London (read, car speed), by removing pedestrian crossings, rephasing traffic lights (Ken Livingstone increased the number of ped crossings at major junctions which had a completely green phase for peds, ie. no motor traffic moved at all, this has been reversed at many junctions).

    Was it someone on here or one of my friends who was saying that they knew somleone at TfL who was saying that traffic is "scored"? Whoever it was said that car traffic gets a point for every car that passes a certain point but 7 bikes have to pass before bikes score a point. Even buses, despite their size only count for half a car.... So when all the points are tallied, cars always show up as the dominant traffic. Car is basically king.
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  • BassjunkieukBassjunkieuk Posts: 4,232
    Was it someone on here or one of my friends who was saying that they knew somleone at TfL who was saying that traffic is "scored"? Whoever it was said that car traffic gets a point for every car that passes a certain point but 7 bikes have to pass before bikes score a point. Even buses, despite their size only count for half a car.... So when all the points are tallied, cars always show up as the dominant traffic. Car is basically king.

    I had read that before but also read on a blog post yesterday whilst I was following this that bicycles don't even get counted in the grand scheme and on another post (I think it was the TFL press release) that cyclists only account for 6% of the total road users at peak hours. Not quite sure how that's possible if you consider it's basically a car park for vehicles during peak times however bikes can continue un-hindered.

    I'll be going tonight, I really feel it's time to take a stand on this as so far TFL seem to have shut their eyes and are running around with their fingers in their ears going "LALALALALALA"

    Also nice of the Beeb to dedicate an entire 30 seconds to this on the London news coverage this morning......no mention of the protest ride just that TFL are starting work and some people have objected. SOME? Understatement no?
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  • TonymufcTonymufc Posts: 1,016
    Been seeing a lot of action on Twitter over this. Seems like the strength of feeling is quite high. If its worth making a stand, then make a stand. Cyclists I believe now make up a large proportion of London traffic so why shouldn't you be heard. Good luck with this folks and STAND together. The cycling community is with you.
  • roger_merrimanroger_merriman Posts: 6,147
    Tonymufc wrote:
    Been seeing a lot of action on Twitter over this. Seems like the strength of feeling is quite high. If its worth making a stand, then make a stand. Cyclists I believe now make up a large proportion of London traffic so why shouldn't you be heard. Good luck with this folks and STAND together. The cycling community is with you.

    large proportion may be stretching it a bit far, bikes are certainly common to see, but judging from you tube videos and when I ride in myself cyclists are totally outnumbered by cars buses taxies and so on.
  • notsobluenotsoblue Posts: 5,838
    large proportion may be stretching it a bit far, bikes are certainly common to see, but judging from you tube videos and when I ride in myself cyclists are totally outnumbered by cars buses taxies and so on.

    It depends on the time of day. I usually pass there between 8:30-8:45 and its a fairly constant stream of cyclists.
  • roger_merrimanroger_merriman Posts: 6,147
    notsoblue wrote:
    large proportion may be stretching it a bit far, bikes are certainly common to see, but judging from you tube videos and when I ride in myself cyclists are totally outnumbered by cars buses taxies and so on.

    It depends on the time of day. I usually pass there between 8:30-8:45 and its a fairly constant stream of cyclists.

    and probably constant stream of cars etc, clearly cycling is booming but it's a long way from being a "large proportion" I agree there probably are some points such as bridges that you'll get high numbers but out of that narrow band it's remarkable how few other bikes you see riding though london.
  • notsobluenotsoblue Posts: 5,838
    and probably constant stream of cars etc, clearly cycling is booming but it's a long way from being a "large proportion" I agree there probably are some points such as bridges that you'll get high numbers but out of that narrow band it's remarkable how few other bikes you see riding though london.

    Pretty unscientific but I reckon that most commuters that use the bridge do so on foot or by bike. Most of the motorised traffic on that bridge is trade, taxies, lorries etc... Not individual people commuting to work in their own car. So cyclists would seem to be a large proportion of the commuting traffic.

    Edited for less certainty...
  • iPeteiPete Posts: 6,076
    Anyone think expectations of 'thousands of cyclists' turning up are remotely possible?

    Hopefully Evans have finished fettling with my Brompton in time or I'll just stay at the pub :lol:
  • il_principeil_principe Posts: 9,146
    iPete wrote:
    Anyone think expectations of 'thousands of cyclists' turning up are remotely possible?

    Hopefully Evans have finished fettling with my Brompton in time or I'll just stay at the pub :lol:

    1000's is a bit hopeful, but It's gonna be a good turnout I reckon.
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  • BassjunkieukBassjunkieuk Posts: 4,232
    iPete wrote:
    Anyone think expectations of 'thousands of cyclists' turning up are remotely possible?

    Hopefully Evans have finished fettling with my Brompton in time or I'll just stay at the pub :lol:

    1000's is a bit hopeful, but It's gonna be a good turnout I reckon.

    It's a combination of 2 groups, so there is the main LCC organized ride + Critical Mass is heading over to the bridge. I guess 1K riders is optimistic but with the amount of attention it been getting online I guess we should make good inroads!

    Reading some of the comments on the Guardian bike blog was rather amusing. People moaning that they'll be held up on the buses trying to get across the bridge....
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  • feltkuotafeltkuota Posts: 333
    My opinion is that for those cyclists that cannot manage BB as is then they really shouldn't be cycling...
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