Cav's bike ability

amaferanga

Yossie wrote:

Harp wrote:

OK, so we know he is being regarded as the greatest sprinter that there has been , but what of his biking abilities.
Would he wipe the floor with the field in an Elite class race in the UK , or a 1st 2nd race ???

Just wondering.

Seriously? Like in serious question, like?

I'm not joining in the Cav sycophancy, any pro rider, down to this year's Lantern Rouge, would walk away from any Elite, Cat 1 & 2 rider. Anywhere. While singing to himself and looking at passing totty. And probably smoking a fag as well.

Hoogerland post crash would just stroll away from any Elite rider.

These guys are phenominally fast, talented, fit and are at the top of their game.

I remember Cav being asked whether an Elite guy could stay with the peloton - he replied something along the lines of "nah, maybe through the neutral zone, but after that, not a chance".

Amateur/Pro is a completely different ball game. Imagine having Zola in his hey day playing in your local pub team: he may be quite good compared to the rest of them out there.

Now, Cav versus a top neo - pro on the top of his game on a good day: now there could be an upset. But I wouldn't bet anything on it.

You just have to look at how (relatively) easy some days in the peleton are to see that an Elite could stick with the peleton on certain days (e.g. I think Flecha only averaged ~200W (active recovery for him) one day on the tour this year).

I do think Cav could win just about any E/1/2/3 race he entered in the UK though.

lostboysaint

amaferanga wrote:

You just have to look at how (relatively) easy some days in the peloton are to see that an Elite could stick with the peloton on certain days (e.g. I think Flecha only averaged ~200W (active recovery for him) one day on the tour this year).

I do think Cav could win just about any E/1/2/3 race he entered in the UK though.

You don't get it do you. The reason that Flecha was able to "bimble" along at 200W was because he's a pro that's trained all his life to achieve speeds and distances much more efficiently than other mortals. An Elite rider would be pushing their envelope to hang on.

Once again, Cav said that most elite riders may hang on in the neutral zone and wouldn't be there after that. I suspect that as he's been there and done that, he's got a pretty good idea of what he's talking about.

Tom Butcher

200 watts is 200 watts whoever is putting it out - admittedly your average pro tour rider will be far more comfortable sitting in the bunch than even your average top UK elite but I think saying they'd all get blown out straight away on any stage is putting it too strong.

Look at the races where the top domestic elites do race against the pro tour boys - it's not quite as easy as some of you make out - did Cav finish ahead of all the domestic riders in the national championships for example ? The gap is there but it's not such a chasm that the pros can just solo away from them. I remember Hammond (a decent pro by any standards) complaining that all the domestic riders marked him in the national champs so he had no chance - he was the strongest rider on the day but not by the margin some of you seem to think would exist.

Yossie

amaferanga wrote:

You just have to look at how (relatively) easy some days in the peloton are to see that an Elite could stick with the peloton on certain days (e.g. I think Flecha only averaged ~200W (active recovery for him) one day on the tour this year).

I do think Cav could win just about any E/1/2/3 race he entered in the UK though.

Is there an emoticon for "smashing head against a brick wall"?

No. They would not stick with a Pro. End of. Even if they did stick at ~200w, the Pro would get bored, just turn around, look at him, put out his ciggie, put down his pint and sprint off. Up anything, down anything, anywhere.

It is a different league. That's why they are professional bike riders - they happen to be quite good at what they do. I'm good at blowing things up - its my job. I don't profess to be a pro bike rider. Cav et al don't profess to be good at blowing things up, they don't do my job but they are pro bike riders

Tom Butcher

Yossie - some domestic elites ARE pros themselves.

lostboysaint

Are you the kind of guy that thinks that you'd give Lewis Hamilton a race in identical cars as well?

Yossie

Tom Butcher wrote:

Yossie - some domestic elites ARE pros themselves.

There's a difference between and pro and a Pro.

It's a completely, totally, different ball game.

People who play footy for Hunstanton in the Shiitiala Purple Circle (Dulwich section league) are pros, but they ain't Lionel Messi.

I despair and give up ....... Can someone else please help out here?

Tom Butcher

You only have to look at what actually happens when the so called "real pros" race against the domestic pros - as you'd expect the real pros are better but they are not better by the kind of margin you are making out. Instead of repeating the same thing over and over why not have a look at actual race results - like the national champs the other year when the likes of Dave Clark beat several of these "real pros" in the field that should have been able to drop him at will while smoking a fag. I accept it wasn't an A race for them but even so if it was that easy what happened - after all if they were bothered to turn up they must have put some effort in ?

Nobody is pretending there isn't a gap in class - but it isn't the kind of gap you think - if it was how do you explain the 2009 Tour of Ireland when a domestic pro beat several top pro tour riders, or the occasional win of someone like House in the national champs ? What happened there - surely these pros should have just ridden off at will shouldn't they ?

Also interested in how 200 watts makes Flecha go faster than 200 watts for anyone else.

Tom BB

Smokin Joe wrote:

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

Smokin Joe wrote:

And he could ride away from Elite/1/2/3 riders on one leg.

Unless it was up hill.

So how many E/1/2/3 riders do you know who could ride up the Alps and the Pyrenees in the Autobus?

The term non climber is only by pro standards, Cav or any other sprinter can climb faster than any amateur can dream about.

Nail. Head. etc

Think about Russ Downing......he could climb as well as anybody on the UK scene a few years back-he struggled in the autobus at the Giro this year!

Maybe he wouldn't ride away from the field in the hillier domestic races, but he'd still be there at the end and make everyone look very average when he opened up his sprint!

Funny isn't-who'd have thought that the Green Jersey of the Tour was better than semi professionals

Tom Butcher

lostboysaint wrote:

Are you the kind of guy that thinks that you'd give Lewis Hamilton a race in identical cars as well?

200 watts for Flecha makes him go faster than 200 watts for anyone else eh - roflmfao

sloppyschleckonds

Yossie wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

Yossie - some domestic elites ARE pros themselves.

There's a difference between and pro and a Pro.

It's a completely, totally, different ball game.

People who play footy for Hunstanton in the Shiitiala Purple Circle (Dulwich section league) are pros, but they ain't Lionel Messi.

I despair and give up ....... Can someone else please help out here?

Can't you go and blow something up? Like another balloon?

Yossie

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Yossie wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

Yossie - some domestic elites ARE pros themselves.

There's a difference between and pro and a Pro.

It's a completely, totally, different ball game.

People who play footy for Hunstanton in the Shiitiala Purple Circle (Dulwich section league) are pros, but they ain't Lionel Messi.

I despair and give up ....... Can someone else please help out here?

Can't you go and blow something up? Like another balloon?

Too tired from your bird blowing me .......

BigG67

rozzer32 wrote:

BigG67

No I meant that I think they would finish a lot further behind. Just compare peoples time in the Etape to Cavs time. I know some people in the Etape are just sunday ride people but I think there would have been some racers as well.

Ah ha...then I agree wholeheartedly.

Vino2007

Yossie, you're an absolute muppet! You're making the pro-tour pros out to be god-like. I don't think you have a grasp over the ability of quite a lot of domestic riders. However I would question how many stages of a grand tour that someone like Kristian House would complete.

sloppyschleckonds

Yossie wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Yossie wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

Yossie - some domestic elites ARE pros themselves.

There's a difference between and pro and a Pro.

It's a completely, totally, different ball game.

People who play footy for Hunstanton in the Shiitiala Purple Circle (Dulwich section league) are pros, but they ain't Lionel Messi.

I despair and give up ....... Can someone else please help out here?

Can't you go and blow something up? Like another balloon?

Too tired from your bird blowing me .......

You said you blow things up for a living, bouncy castles? Balloons?

mouth

Tom Butcher wrote:

You only have to look at what actually happens when the so called "real pros" race against the domestic pros - as you'd expect the real pros are better but they are not better by the kind of margin you are making out. Instead of repeating the same thing over and over why not have a look at actual race results - like the national champs the other year when the likes of Dave Clark beat several of these "real pros" in the field that should have been able to drop him at will while smoking a fag. I accept it wasn't an A race for them but even so if it was that easy what happened - after all if they were bothered to turn up they must have put some effort in ?

Nobody is pretending there isn't a gap in class - but it isn't the kind of gap you think - if it was how do you explain the 2009 Tour of Ireland when a domestic pro beat several top pro tour riders, or the occasional win of someone like House in the national champs ? What happened there - surely these pros should have just ridden off at will shouldn't they ?

Also interested in how 200 watts makes Flecha go faster than 200 watts for anyone else.

200 Flecha watts doesn't make him go faster then anyone else. The point is he rode a full stage of the Tour in active recovery, like a warm down after your sportive you did at the weekend. In essence, he wasn't really trying. An Elite rider might be able to compete on one or two of the Tour stages, but for 21 days? Doubt it. He may well do some damage in a shorter stage race or one day event, but I'm sure if a Pro tained properly with a certain event in mind he's win it hands down.

Also, as for a Pro riding away at will i guess it depends on their motivation for actually being in the race. If you take Team SKY's appearance in ToB last year, it was just after withdrawing (ooer Missus....) from the Vuelta and it appeared they weren't really trying. My guess is they were just cooling down and riding out the season rather than an all out attack on winning the whole thing, which I'm sure if they wanted to they would have.

If a rider is competing in an event just to build up their mileage before a bigger event they aren't necessarily going to put in 100% effort and bust their balls to win the damned thing. For sure they would if they wanted to.

Tom Butcher

Wouldn't disagree - there is a real gap in class but there are riders who have crossed over, admittedly not many, and there are races where the domestics compete with some success against the continental pros. I know they aren't A races for the big boys but reading some of the stuff on this thread you'd think the likes of Endura, Rapha etc are a collection of 4th cats and a few guys they met at a sportive (with no disrepect to either group!)

crymble

I remember reading that a couple of years ago the fastest person in the Etape de Tour up the Ventoux was the French amateur champion.

The slowest of the actual Tour riders up the Ventoux was Cavendish. However, his time up the Ventoux was still quicker than the French amateur champion.

Keith

mroli

I read that only 4 riders of the etape would have been within the cut off time.

Chip \'oyler

Harp wrote:

OK, so we know he is being regarded as the greatest sprinter that there has been , but what of his biking abilities.
Would he wipe the floor with the field in an Elite class race in the UK , or a 1st 2nd race ???

Just wondering.

WTF! The lad earned his spurs on the Track, getting a World medal in the Madison, which is considered the craziest event in a velodrome. You don't earn a rainbow jersey in that race without having supreme 'biking abilities'.

The lad is class. End of.

Smokin Joe

crymble wrote:

I remember reading that a couple of years ago the fastest person in the Etape de Tour up the Ventoux was the French amateur champion.

The slowest of the actual Tour riders up the Ventoux was Cavendish. However, his time up the Ventoux was still quicker than the French amateur champion.

Keith

By half an hour IIRC, though that might have been for the whole stage.

One hell of a difference for someone on a specially prepared for single day event and a guy taking a battering in a three week tour.

RichN95.

crymble wrote:

I remember reading that a couple of years ago the fastest person in the Etape de Tour up the Ventoux was the French amateur champion.

The slowest of the actual Tour riders up the Ventoux was Cavendish. However, his time up the Ventoux was still quicker than the French amateur champion.

Keith

You read wrong. It wasn't the French Amateur Champion that won that L'Etape. It was the French Professional Champion (the appropriately named Dimitri Champion, currently of AG2R)

Mark Bom

Surely the National Championships show the difference?

What was the difference in time from Wiggins to the 4th placed rider (not Team Sky)? I know Cav didn't do well, but I think that was due to punctures?

Also, I've read that Cav reckons the neutral zone is no easy ride either. With the proximity of the riders you need very good bike skills just to avoid touching and causing a crash.

Mike Healey

According to the Comic, this week, Cav's time for Alpe d'Huez was 55 minutes

RichN95.

Now I've been watching a little cricket recently. Could some experts tell me this -

The likes of Sachin Tendulkar and Alastair Cook look good on those big flashy test match grounds. But do you reckon they would be able to cope in village cricket facing a fat butcher called Barry bowling long hops?

This thread reminds me of Sunday footballers who say "that Ronaldo, he's flash in the Premiership where the refs protect him, but bring him down the parks for a game and we'll sort him out. Terry there won't let him get a touch, would you Terry?"

TimB34

mroli wrote:

I read that only 4 riders of the etape would have been within the cut off time.

That was inrngs estimation. What actually happened was a few minutes the other way:

On stage 19, the gruppetto (containing Cavendish, Farrar, Greipel, Hushovd, Cancellara, Millar and loads of others) finished 25:27 down on the winner (and outside the delay by a couple of minutes). A total time of 3:38:52.

The étape du tour results are here: http://www.asochallenge.com/fr/10km_EDT1.html

The winner (ex-pro JC Currit) came in at 3:39:10, 18s down on the gruppetto.

Of course, it's worth remembering that Currit didn't have the backup of a full team - he rides for Ekoi, but there's only a few of them and they don't have the same domestiques/leaders/protected riders structure as a pro team.

SteveR_100Milers

RichN95 wrote:

Now I've been watching a little cricket recently. Could some experts tell me this -

The likes of Sachin Tendulkar and Alastair Cook look good on those big flashy test match grounds. But do you reckon they would be able to cope in village cricket facing a fat butcher called Barry bowling long hops?

This thread reminds me of Sunday footballers who say "that Ronaldo, he's flash in the Premiership where the refs protect him, but bring him down the parks for a game and we'll sort him out. Terry there won't let him get a touch, would you Terry?"

+1

The good thing about a velodrome is every now and again someone like super G turns up and you realise how sh*t you are. Even the youths in development squad will give a 1st cat amateur a fright, and they are still a very very long way from being a competitive pro rider, let alone a journeyman in a grand tour.

mroli

RichN95 wrote:

Now I've been watching a little cricket recently. Could some experts tell me this -

The likes of Sachin Tendulkar and Alastair Cook look good on those big flashy test match grounds. But do you reckon they would be able to cope in village cricket facing a fat butcher called Barry bowling long hops?

I once played for a VERY village side - we played a team of students once and they got one of their mates to make up the numbers. His name was John Crawley and he had recently been capped by England. He scored well over 100+. We didn't have any fat butchers or bowlers called Barry, did have a carpenter, a gardener and someone called Bob though.

I bowled one over at him and he hit my first 5 balls for 4. I did however have him ABSOLUTELY plumb LBW with my last ball - the umpire refused to give him though (par for the course at village level). So they can only cope with that level of cricket if they get some assistance - I think this means that Cav could only cope with the Chiltern 100 or the Dragon ride if he could hang off support cars! :twisted: