Orange 5 Wierdness....

desmojen

Hi all, my husband has an Orange 5 which has developed a very odd trait, and I wondered if anyone here might know what it is or how to fix it.

The bike is a 2010 5 pro, which we bought last autumn from a local shop as an ex demo bike. It was completely stock at that point. My husband has made some changes (as you do) and it has recently developed this odd trait. It has always has what I call wheelbarrow steering, that being quite wandery and wobbly at low speed. I had always attributed this to the relatively slack steering angle compared to my own bike.
Now, however, it has a new facet to this. The steering constantly pulls to the left, to the point where if you let go of the bars it will continue straight for a second, then start to go left, and then suddenly flop all the way to the left. I also noted it when transitioning from seated to standing as I was about to hop up a kerb - basically feeling like it wanted to wash out. He'd been complaining all day about it feeling unstable and unsafe (we were at Cwmcarn) and having ridden it when we got home, I can now sympathise.
If it was a car you'd say the tracking was out, if it was a motorbike, you'd say the frame was bent........ I'm pretty sure neither of those things is the problem in this case!

So I should explain the changes. Basically, he changed the original Fox float 32 140mm for a Rockshox Lyric U-Turn 115-160mm travel fork. He mostly runs it at 140, but extends it to 160 for downhill sections. The rear shock has been changed for a Fox Van RC, and he has wider bars and a shorter stem (both Sunline V1). He has fitted a Gravity Dropper seatpost, and changed the front brake from a Hope X2 to a Hope M4. It is otherwise standard.

So he says the flippy to the left thing happens at both 140 and 160mm travel. The wheel bearings are smooth and free, and the brake does not drag. Does anyone have the faintest idea what might be causing this issue???

Thanks,
Jen.

nicklouse

I would see if you can get it to filp to the right.


but it does sound like it is over forked/under sagged. try dropping the travel more and see if it goes. Also check the sag on the rear is correct

Oh the shock is the same sizes as the old one.

stubs

are the wheels dished properly and straight

is the headset okay

are the brake hoses or gear cables pulling or too short

have you got the stabilisers fitted properly

flip the bike upside down line wheels up straight and step back crouch down and look along the bike is everything bang in line

desmojen

It did seem to me to be suspension related somehow. I found if I held the back of the seat and ran along with it, it tracked perfectly with no flop evident.

So by under sagged, would you be referring to fromt, or rear?

Shock is the correct size, cables/hoses are fine. headset was fine a month or so ago, wheels are true. I should have mentioned tyres, Minion front and High Roller rear. Minion is worn, but not worn out.
Alignment is something we're going to have to look at I guess.

Jen.

nicklouse

desmojen wrote:

It did seem to me to be suspension related somehow. I found if I held the back of the seat and ran along with it, it tracked perfectly with no flop evident.

the fork is too long. and the shock is too short when on the bike

not enough sag on the front too much on the rear.

Or the fork is just too long.

stubs

nicklouse wrote:

desmojen wrote:

It did seem to me to be suspension related somehow. I found if I held the back of the seat and ran along with it, it tracked perfectly with no flop evident.

the fork is too long. and the shock is too short when on the bike

not enough sag on the front too much on the rear.

Or the fork is just too long.

Wouldnt the bike try to flop equally to the left or right if the bike is overforked.

I asked about cables and hoses because I have come across this problem before and it was caused by a too short badly routed gear cable that pulled the bike to the side constantly

nicklouse

the fact it is going to one side I bet is a rider issue.

fridgehq

Is the Pivot bolt at the correct torque,the reason I say this is my Proflex ( single pivot too) pivot bolt had come loose and was giving me unstable handling problems

stubs

nicklouse wrote:

the fact it is going to one side I bet is a rider issue.

But 2 riders having the exact same problem not impossible but the chances are you wouldnt both have the same problem.

Just reread the OP and I realise it cant be hoses or cables if it tracks okay with no weight onboard. Think fridgehq might be on too something though.

desmojen

It is unlikely that we'd both go left if it was a rider thing, if only because Lee is left handed while I am not. So we naturally default in different directions

He has tried a range of travels tonight, as well as a different front wheel. None of that made any difference at all. He has fitted a softer spring on the shock and he says that improved it a little.
He is going to look at the pivots as per fridehq's suggestion, but as some of you may appreciate, the Orange has a fairly unique set up with the pivots and he is quite meticulous with checking bolt tightness on a regular basis.

Thanks for all the ideas so far though, we appreciate it.

Jen.

Anonymous

Have you considered an exorcist?

As for the softer spring on the shock - that's the opposite of what Nick reccomended!

There is nothing even remotely unique about the pivot setup on Oranges.

The Northern Monkey

Which Lyric is it and what year?

Stab in the dark... is it a 2-step air?

madmole

Tyre Pressure?

Are the axles in the frame fully

Check frame alignment (use string to accurately check both sides)

Headset snug

Buckled wheel

Forks knackered and twisting

Bent seat post

Wont be fork length or shock length, although they can/do alter handling it would do it to both sides

desmojen

yeehaamcgee wrote:

There is nothing even remotely unique about the pivot setup on Oranges.

By that I simply mean that a loose pinch bolt will not necessarily make for a loose pivot because the swingarm axles are welded into the frame. The worst that can happen as long as the M5 end caps screws are in is a little bit of side to side float. On my Giant though, the pivot bolt is precisely that, and if it came loose, a loose linkage would be the result. Simples.

The Lyric in question is a coil sprung U-Turn of 2009 vintage. It is in excellent condition throughout and most definitely not bent!
Axles are in, of course. Tyre pressures are checked before every ride and are run at 35psi. The headset is fine, and we have tried an alternative front wheel to rule that out. The seat had a new internal shaft fitted three rides ago, so that isn't bent either.

Jen.

The Northern Monkey

do you still have the old fork?

what is the axle to crown measurement of both forks?

estampida

I take it the stem is really really inline

and the bar does not stick out too far on 1 side

same with the grips

are the forks new, could be a sticky bush on 1 side or a cracked crown.........

is the headset cups / crown ring bang on

and the star fangled nut is not slipping (did he re-use it?)

CFS

When my old commuter bike started to pull to one side it was the headset. It felt OK stationary and was only detectable when riding. It made the bike feel extremely unstable at times.

supersonic

Thing is when you let go of the bars and sit up for a no hander, your weight goes back. The angles are slack enough already on this bike, this just accentuates it. At slow speeds the fork and steering is very liable to be unstable, and little things will make it turn. Quite often it is yourself leaning. or could be something as silly as the brake caliper and rotor weight, which afterall, is on the left of the fork.

tsenior

if its not just the general low-speed instability thing then:

(as a couple of other people have said) make sure the headset is ok; I had exactly the same symptoms on a hardtail, it felt very strange turned out the upper headset cup had come loose and developed play.

allen.coulson

My guess is that simply the centre of gravity is on the left - because of extra weight made noticable if the head bearings have very low friction. Hence it pulls to the left. Maybe this is exacerbated by heavier rims/ tyres than normal and don't forget that an accelerating, decelerating wheel will have a gyroscopic torque and if I remember my right hand rule - pointing to the left.

Curl v = F if you want to get stroppy about it!

desmojen

Thanks for all the ideas chaps. I have measured the forks today, and they are roughly 1cm longer at 140mm than my Sektors are at the same ride height. This, coupled with the extra length of fully extended Lyrics will have made a fairly big difference to the head angle methinks. It doesn't explain why it still does it at 115mm travel though :?:

I'll pass on the messages about the headset, but he's going to fit my Sektors and see if that changes anything, so the headset will get checked by default when doing that.

Thanks again,
Jen.

desmojen

Just to let you know, the problem seems to have gone away now.
As I mentioned in the last post, we fitted my Sektors to the bike and sure enough, the steering was normal. Still flappier than my Trance, but that is just the nature of the beast I think.
At that point, we were resigned to some expensiveness, but Lee wanted to put the Lyric back on just to be sure. Before we did so, I carefully cleaned and checked all the headset parts (Hope), including removing and reseating the crown race. On test riding it again, it was cured!

So I'm not sure exactly what the issue was, but some part of cleaning and reassembling the headset parts got rid of it!
Thanks again for the helpful suggestions

Jen.