dispute in less than a milimeter

bluechair84

Got some issues with the distributor of a set of fox 36 Enduro seals. I gave up trying to install them after hours of braying upon them with a rubber mallet, and sent them back. I greased the lowers to help the seals slip in, froze them to help them contract, and used a peice of PVC pipe to tap equally around the seal edge all to no avail (after hours of trying I ended up with a bloody hand).
The distributor has said that the seals measure up the same as everything else in stock. My fork internal diameter however seem to measure up slightly smaller than the seals - a 0.8mm variance.
The guy at the store said that he didn't expect a seal .8mm larger than the leg to ever go in and also said after asking around, the older models of 36s were slightly smaller. Enduro does not make different seals for these two differences nor do they inform us of this.
The interesting part however, is that despite admitting they weren't likely to fit, he will not give a refund because they are 'used'. I had to use them to fit them and find out that they wouldn't fit. He is under the impression that it was my responsibility to check before purchase - but there is nothing on the Enduro website or their website to inform the user that Fox changed the internal bore of the seal seat by fractions of a mm.
I have suggested that he return the seals to Enduro and ask for their money back as no party has been correctly informed of the issues.

Opinions? Am I being unreasonable?

I have some OEM seals to try tonight that are a softer compound and are more likely to fit. I would however like my money back for something that is not compatible.

bluechair84

Oh, and I waited around two weeks for the seals to arrive and am now days from leaving for the Alps with a set of forks in bits. I'm developing my third grey hair.

Anonymous

Who are Enduro?

nicklouse

i bit of a tricky one.

incorrect good supplied = exchange for correct or a refund.

Used goods Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

As you (or anyone) were not aware that there are differing sizes you would not have an inclination to measure the insert part to check.

but if you had the correct tools would it have fitted?

there are no alternatives listed for a Fox 36 just one set of seal for all.

JonnyN

Sounds like they are unfit for intended use. You should still be entitled to a refund.

allen.coulson

I think they have misinformed you. They certainly did not know of the two sizes after the event so could not have done so before the purchase.

Metaphorically, if you pointed at the thing and said 'I want that' then it is down to you and there is no recourse. If they advised you of the product then they have supplied the wrong goods and you should be refunded. If they , as an agent, are acting on behalf of a manufacturer who has got incorrect literature that you relied upon they they (agent) should refund you.

If you bought with a card then tell the bank and claim from them - they are jointly and severally liable.

estampida

so what,

the shop supply and due to maufacturer fault / insanely bad tolerances they dont fit

where is my money ..... mofo's

either that or they give you another set of sels to try, then get your money back cos they sell seals that dont fit fox 36's

trade discription act & consumer act (6 years warrenty on design fault)

nicklouse

Just been googling and

Don't buy Enduro fork seals from Ebay or the UK, even CRC - especially for Fox 36's.

Turns out they had an issue with oversize dust seals which are an absolute pig to fit and spring out (spent much of this afternoon trying to fit some and nearly ruined my lowers)

Been in touch with Real World Cycling and they've been super helpful (excellent reputation), offering to send me two replacement dust seals and crush washers even though I didn't buy my seal kit directly from them

Lesson learnt - if you're buying replacement Enduro seals especially for Fox 36's get them direct from http://www.enduroforkseals.com/

bluechair84

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Who are Enduro?

They make aftermarket dust wipers / seals for forks - as for whether they are an aftermarket 'upgrade' is undecided as they aren't necessarily better than OEM, I just wanted to try out an alternative brand.

nicklouse wrote:

i bit of a tricky one.

incorrect good supplied = exchange for correct or a refund.

Used goods Mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

As you (or anyone) were not aware that there are differing sizes you would not have an inclination to measure the insert part to check.

but if you had the correct tools would it have fitted?

there are no alternatives listed for a Fox 36 just one set of seal for all.

I think that's the thing, if I'd of had a pair of verniers handy I could have checked all the measurements - but how the hell is that the responsibility of the consumer? Where on earth is the internal bore published and acceptable tolerance of the seal? Part of his argument is that I have checked the sizes with a vernier since we've had this issue, so I could have checked prior to make sure I'm getting the right product.

Also – I spoke to a guy at RWC and he also said that there was a bad batch of seals that didn’t fit. The message I’m getting from [this store] (name omitted until it’s reasonable to start pointing the finger) is that all Enduro seals come out that size and it is the fork lower that is the issue, so not their responsibility to replace.

nicklouse

the store is wrong they got and supplied a faulty set. RWC will replace them.

bluechair84

nicklouse wrote:

Just been googling and

Don't buy Enduro fork seals from Ebay or the UK, even CRC - especially for Fox 36's.

Turns out they had an issue with oversize dust seals which are an absolute pig to fit and spring out (spent much of this afternoon trying to fit some and nearly ruined my lowers)

Been in touch with Real World Cycling and they've been super helpful (excellent reputation), offering to send me two replacement dust seals and crush washers even though I didn't buy my seal kit directly from them

Lesson learnt - if you're buying replacement Enduro seals especially for Fox 36's get them direct from http://www.enduroforkseals.com/

Just found this thread - and it's from 2005 so youd think Enduro would have sorted this issue / ran out of the bad batch by now.

nicklouse

err Sat May 29, 2010 it is possible.

bluechair84

my bad, I have my browser zoomed in to maximise the BR thread across the page - so the only date I could see was when the poster joined the forum :oops:

In which case, I'll try getting in touch with Enduro to see if the bad batch rumours are true. If not though - am I right to be asking for my money back for a 'used' product?

supersonic

Have you damaged the seals?

nicklouse

we now come down to the argument about fitting procedures.

If they are correct and can be fitted when using the correct tools then unfortunately you will most likely be unhappy with the outcome.

Just hope it was part of the bad batch.

bluechair84

He says they are not in re-sellable condition. Though I have not damaged the seals, they have clearly been (attempted) fitted due to grease and very minor scuffs where I've been using the PVC pipe (as recommended by enduro) to tap down the seal.

The 'tapping' with the rubber mallet escalated slightly over the two hours...

nicklouse

bluechair84 wrote:

He says they are not in re-sellable condition. Though I have not damaged the seals, they have clearly been (attempted) fitted due to grease and very minor scuffs where I've been using the PVC pipe (as recommended by enduro) to tap down the seal.

The 'tapping' with the rubber mallet escalated slightly over the two hours...

like i said hope they are part of the bad batch. then the shop will not be reselling them.

TuckerUK

It does not matter if they are in sellable condition or not, they supplied goods 'unfit for purpose' and you must be refunded, 'tis the law.

Anonymous

Forgive my curiosity, but why would you chose to buy Enduro seals, instead of getting them from Mojo, or TFtuned, for example?

bluechair84

Having just spoken to Mojo, there was never any change in the internal bore. The plot thickens...

supersonic

Mojo could be wrong, or there is a tolerance issue with a batch of forks.

I'd contact Fox directly.

bluechair84

Ok Sonic.
Am emailing Fox now, can you tell me - if Mojo are the distributor, what is the LBS? The Dealer?

madmole

Yep, seal "unfit for purpos"e, they MUST refund if you ask for it. Totally irrelevent if marked, greasy or even destroyed.

A single call to trading standards will set them right if they refuse

gilesjuk

Small components like that require much better manufacture and testing of tolerances. They can't get away with such a huge difference, so they're faulty.

It might not be for the space shuttle (we all know what happened there) but your safety could be at risk force fitting some seals with brute force.

xand_xand

Your contract is with the shop who supplied them, they are not fit for purpose, therefore tell em you know your statutory rights and you want a full no fuss refund within 7 days.

keep us posted

bluechair84

I've spoken to a lad at Real World Cycling who help design the seals who confirmed that there was a bad batch which has an F2 derivation on and these fit all 36s forks, not a particular year. The newer ones have F3. Mine have F3. So I've sent off the diameter of the seals to RWC to see if they fall within tollerance :shock: .

Anonymous

Real world cycling help design the seals for Fox?
Now I'm confused.

getonyourbike

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Real world cycling help design the seals for Fox?
Now I'm confused.

No, RWC help design the seals for Enduro

Bike Bloke

TuckerUK wrote:

It does not matter if they are in sellable condition or not, they supplied goods 'unfit for purpose' and you must be refunded, 'tis the law.

It's true they must refund you if you want to refund within a certain time limit.

nicklouse

getonyourbike wrote:

yeehaamcgee wrote:

Real world cycling help design the seals for Fox?
Now I'm confused.

No, RWC help design the seals for Enduro

RWC and Enduro are the same company.

Anonymous

Seing as you're imminently going to the Alps, can;t you order some quick form Mojo or TF?