Can frames wear out?

dot1

This is purely a non-research/I've been wondering question, but can you wear a hard tail frame out? Assuming that the frame doesn't get dented or bent, if a hard tail is ridden over some gnarly, rocky trails regularly, will the material's properties decline and affect the attributes of the frame? (how flexy/stiff it is and responsive it is) Obviously FS frames have the rear sus to take the vast majority of the sting out of impacts and reduce the abuse on the frame, but with a HT all the force goes directly into the alu/steel/CF and over a period of time, would it affect how the frame handles and responds?

Has anyone had a frame that they've hammered over a long time and noticed a difference in the frame's ability to absorb impacts?

nicklouse

yes. they can were out.

they normally fail somewhere.

gilesjuk

Aluminium frames are probably the ones that will last the longest, so long as you don't buckle or bend them in any way.

Steel frames require annual rust proofing to prevent internal corrosion.

Ti frames are known to crack and fail around the welds (although it can depend how good the original assembly was).

Carbon frames can get damaged and crack. Although such damage may write off an alu frame.

But you tend to find that frames become obsolete before wearing out. Lack of disc mounts, aheadsets and so on. The latest is BB30 and other pushfit bearing designs, these may kill off the traditional screw in bottom bracket.

cooldad

But whether it gets damaged before it gets outdated is another story.

supersonic

Aluminium usually lasts the shortest - it has no fatigue limit, so even the smallest flexing adds up over time.

cooldad

gilesjuk wrote:

Steel frames require annual rust proofing to prevent internal corrosion.

Really. I have two from the eighties. Road and MTB. Never been rustproofed in any way.

bennett_346

gilesjuk wrote:

The latest is BB30 and other pushfit bearing designs, these may kill off the traditional screw in bottom bracket.

I can't see that happening but i'm no expert.

alan_sherman

How do frames die?

Crash damage (all materials)

Chain unshipping and taking a hole out of the chainstay (all materials)

Poorly adjusted headset damaging the races (internal headsets) or ovaling the head tube (traditional headsets) and again all materials

Bottom brackets getting stuck in (all materials really).

Fatigue cracks on joins - as a result of bad design or build (all materials)

Fatigue failure of tubes - Aluminium as a material is the lost likely for this, but then aluminium bikes are usually overbuilt to compensate. Steel, titanium and even carbon can suffer - it depends on the design and build of the material and the cyclic stresses it is subjected to.

Rusting through - hello steel! But it takes ages. The frame will usually look really manky before it is significantly weakened.



There may be a slightly noticeable increase in flex just before a tube or join breaks but usually the first you know is a crack you can see. Then a bigger crack you can feel as teh crack opens and shuts). Bigger than a crack is a properly broken frame and you can definitely feel that!

cooldad

alan sherman wrote:

How do frames die?

Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

paulbox

gilesjuk wrote:

Aluminium frames are probably the ones that will last the longest, so long as you don't buckle or bend them in any way.

Steel frames require annual rust proofing to prevent internal corrosion.

Ti frames are known to crack and fail around the welds (although it can depend how good the original assembly was).

Carbon frames can get damaged and crack. Although such damage may write off an alu frame.

But you tend to find that frames become obsolete before wearing out. Lack of disc mounts, aheadsets and so on. The latest is BB30 and other pushfit bearing designs, these may kill off the traditional screw in bottom bracket.

:shock: :? :roll:

dot1

What sort of a timescale are we talking about here? Pour exemple, I have a Boardman frame, and assuming I hammered it say a few times a week, presuming it doesn't crack/bend/get dented, how long would it take for the fatigue to make a noticeable difference to the frame's performance? Or would it not be noticable to a mere mortal and only lab testing/materials guru's be able to notice? I know it's purely circumstantial as it would depend on the trails, but are we talking 2 years? 10 years? Even longer?

RevellRider

There are so many variables that it'd be impossible to put a lifespan on it. Rider weight, style, kit it is fitted with, hours a week rode, terrain rode all contribute.

Clank

gilesjuk wrote:

Aluminium frames are probably the ones that will last the longest, so long as you don't buckle or bend them in any way.

Steel frames require annual rust proofing to prevent internal corrosion.

Ti frames are known to crack and fail around the welds (although it can depend how good the original assembly was).

Carbon frames can get damaged and crack. Although such damage may write off an alu frame.

But you tend to find that frames become obsolete before wearing out. Lack of disc mounts, aheadsets and so on. The latest is BB30 and other pushfit bearing designs, these may kill off the traditional screw in bottom bracket.

Uh, someone needs to brush up on their materials engineering.

bike-a-swan

cooldad wrote:

alan sherman wrote:

How do frames die?

Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.

That's the second time I've heard that quoted today. Fantastic!

Ryan Jones

They do make BMX's out of steel for a good reason, and I have yet to see a 14 year old paperkid applying waxoyl to his bmx yet !

Makes me want a Ragley Blue Pig now

supersonic

They make BMXs out of alu too lol. And even seen carbon fibre ones.

j_l

Dot 1, FYI I had a Cannondale CAAD 6 MTB 2001 from new, it had a really weedy looking rear triangle, that gave me 10 years of abuse I sold it last year and as far as I know it is still going strong and TBH Cannondales had a rep for failing (Carck"n"fail-Cannondale) so I am sure you will be fine, and I didn't notice any change in the bikes feel either.

MattJWL

J L wrote:

Dot 1, FYI I had a Cannondale CAAD 6 MTB 2001 from new, it had a really weedy looking rear triangle, that gave me 10 years of abuse I sold it last year and as far as I know it is still going strong and TBH Cannondales had a rep for failing (Carck"n"fail-Cannondale) so I am sure you will be fine, and I didn't notice any change in the bikes feel either.

Likewise, I had a 1992 Fisher Al-1 (Fisher became Gary Fisher, became part of Trek). Got hammered for most of the 16 years I had it. And as SS pointed out, Aluminium frames are the ones most likely to suffer fatigue failures, so unless you've got a very badly designed bike (which I doubt) it's unlikely that pure fatigue will be the failure mode. If you're unlucky, maybe a poor weld or bad heat treatment would hasten it along, but I definitely wouldn't let it keep you awake at night....

.blitz

Bought new in 1996:

I am a bit paranoid about metal fatigue and the welds etc but the paint shows no tell-tale signs of anything untoward.

dot1

I'm not concerned about the frame failing or welds cracking or anything, I'm just curious from a material properties point of view.

GHill

dot1 wrote:

I'm not concerned about the frame failing or welds cracking or anything, I'm just curious from a material properties point of view.

I would imagine some sort of frame/weld fail would occur before you noticed a change in properties.

Ryan Jones

supersonic wrote:

They make BMXs out of alu too lol. And even seen carbon fibre ones.

I know and I have a soft spot for the redline's :oops: However I was referring to freestyle ones like you'll find over a dirt jumping spot or skatepark, seeing as they must get the toughest life of any bike going if used to their potential.

meesterbond

.blitz wrote:

Bought new in 1996:

I am a bit paranoid about metal fatigue and the welds etc but the paint shows no tell-tale signs of anything untoward.

Wouldn't that frame just die of embarrassment?

Seriously though, aren't the elastomers like concrete now?

Daz555

gilesjuk wrote:

Aluminium frames are probably the ones that will last the longest, so long as you don't buckle or bend them in any way.

Yes they will last a long time if you don't use them.

gilesjuk wrote:

Steel frames require annual rust proofing to prevent internal corrosion.

I have never known a steel frame to significantly corrode from the inside.

.blitz

meesterbond wrote:

Wouldn't that frame just die of embarrassment?

You are of course entitled to your own opinion but in reality it's not too shabby.

In 2005 I replaced the elastomers with some springs (IIRC they were from Rapid Descent) but they never worked too well with the original damper units so I bought a box of OEM elastomers from CVI. I have seven sets left which should last me until 2025 or thereabouts.

The elastomers don't work when the temperature is close to freezing but when used in conjunction with big modern tyres the suspension is pretty good; of course you can't just plough through obstacles like you can with a 140mm trail bike but the flipside is that it is very nimble and agile (especially through Cannock's closely-packed trees) and the front end has just enough travel to take the buzz out of the trail. The back end is as stiff as any hardtail and suffers from none of the mush, excess baggage and geometry changes associated with a longer travel FS bike.

diy

I think full sus frames wear out. There are so many moving parts that eventually the threads go.

fridgehq

Nothing wrong with a good old Proflex