TDF unwritten rules etc - I dont get it

jerry3571

Hence we have since; the organised Pee Stop/Natural Break (sometimes arranged by Le Patron)
and the Mobile Pee (2nd Photo) since that Charly Gaul (Monsieur Pi-Pi) incident, Charly did utter that he would chop the offending riders in to peices as he was once a Butcher; nice one Charly, not mad at all.

In the 1st Photos, Mr Millar can be seen in the Yellow "Draining the Lizard" as some might say!
The antidoping lot should get a bucket for these times and see what they can find.





-Jerry

Ps- Not sure whether it was Dirk de Wolfe that sprayed the crowd during a stage finish once; not sure on that one.

Abdoujaparov

I like team sky, but it was quite funny how the peloton put them in their place after all their over-blown, arrogant and mis-informed claims about how they were going to make a big impression with their superior science and methods. They got absolutely smoked last year.

cougie

"the British never win" ?

Have you not heard of cavendish ?

The "rules" do sound unusual to begin with but in what other sport would you spend hours racing and riding alongside your competition - every day for three weeks ?

You really don't want to create enemies as they'll destroy you.

RowCycle

It's interesting with the use of team cars to get back to the group.

It seems that it's ok to get a hand back to the peloton drafting cars (maybe even the occasional hold) if you've been dropped due to crash/mechanical...

But if you've been dropped as you can't handle the pace this is a no no.

singlespeedexplosif

'2) complaining about riders trying harder when there has been a crash to open up gaps
This one seems to be dying, cf Contador's attack on Shleck last year. '

Poor choice of example. That wasn't a crash, it was someone forgetting how to change gear properly.

Armstrong has no place in that photo montage of great patrons above. He was more a tool than a patron.

shinyhelmut

singlespeedexplosif wrote:

'2) complaining about riders trying harder when there has been a crash to open up gaps
This one seems to be dying, cf Contador's attack on Shleck last year. '

Poor choice of example. That wasn't a crash, it was someone forgetting how to change gear properly.

Plus, of course, the attack was by schleck and I don't recall anyone criticising menchov and Sanchez? 3rd & 4th GC) for continuing their counter. Just contador.

graeme_s-2

jerry3571 wrote:

CSC? Don't tell me Frank even has to hold Andy's hand when he wants a pee!

knedlicky

Monty Dog wrote:

There's a big difference by today's interpretation of ...
The 'unwritten rules' seem to be open to interpretation by some, ...

Monty Dog has got it right about much to do with the role of the patron and also when he touches on the ‘unwritten rules’.
Over the last 15-20 years the ‘unwritten rules’ have become as if a political correctness had entered them. Previously, there weren’t so many ‘rules’ or they didn’t have so many ‘sub-clauses’.

One reason for this shift to a type of political correctness in the rules has been due to certain riders trying to manipulate the ‘unwritten rules’ to suit their or their team’s purpose, as in Monty Dog’s example of Cancellara last year and something which Armstrong also went in for.

Another reason for the shift, however, has been the non-critical view of the media and of cycling enthusiasts to this shift when it first surfaced, perhaps because from the mid-90s until quite recently, ‘political correctness’ infected so many aspects of thought and behaviour, and so the media and many cycling enthusiast easily accepted the shift.

When I think back to how outraged some on this forum were last year about Contador’s behaviour when Schleck messed up his gears, I include many on this forum about this.

With respect to the ‘unwritten rules’, it’s interesting to see how many posters here express a liking for Voeckler.
Apart from the fact that, in contrast to those on this forum, many knowledgeable cycling fans in France regard him as arrogant in a naively childish way and as tactically inept as Fabian Wegmann (or at least used to do, I don't know if they've changed their minds this year), Voeckler isn’t particularly liked in the peloton because he’s known for not abiding by the ‘unwritten rules’, as they are still often interpreted by some riders.

Anyone reading here, who feels Cancellara was right and Contador wrong last year but who also says they like Voeckler, has got their ideas mixed up.

RichN95.

I won't quote it all, but I agree with pretty much all of that.

Another bit of the 'rules' as interpreted by fans is that is daft is the idea that if someone like Contador or Schleck crashes then the peloton should wait, but if it someone like Velits or Hesjedal crashes then the race should go on. Why give the best riders a further advantage? Either wait for everyone (even Jean-Pierre Nobody) or not at all.

I don't think the idea of waiting existed before Armstrong waited for Ullrich. Since then some people seem to think it's expected. Before that, riders would only wait if it was in their own interests.

Butterd2

cristoff wrote:

most interesting thread on here for ages. Love the story about sky at Oman!

+1 to that.

singlespeedexplosif

I don't think the idea of waiting existed before Armstrong waited for Ullrich

stares in wide-eyed amazement at this comment. Did you watch any Tours before the Armstrong era?!

RichN95.

singlespeedexplosif wrote:

I don't think the idea of waiting existed before Armstrong waited for Ullrich

stares in wide-eyed amazement at this comment. Did you watch any Tours before the Armstrong era?!

Yes, 14 of them. Before that, riders didn't attack(usually, sometimes they did though, you'll remember Bernard at the bridge in 1987, of course), but they certainly didn't wait unless it was in their own interests. It definitely wasn't expected.

calvjones

RichN95 wrote:

singlespeedexplosif wrote:

I don't think the idea of waiting existed before Armstrong waited for Ullrich

stares in wide-eyed amazement at this comment. Did you watch any Tours before the Armstrong era?!

Yes, 14 of them. Before that, riders didn't attack(usually, sometimes they did though, you'll remember Bernard at the bridge in 1987, of course), but they certainly didn't wait unless it was in their own interests. It definitely wasn't expected.

My memory's not what it was, but wasn't Big Tex able to wait because he already had minutes in hand on Jan?

RichN95.

calvjones wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

singlespeedexplosif wrote:

I don't think the idea of waiting existed before Armstrong waited for Ullrich

stares in wide-eyed amazement at this comment. Did you watch any Tours before the Armstrong era?!

Yes, 14 of them. Before that, riders didn't attack(usually, sometimes they did though, you'll remember Bernard at the bridge in 1987, of course), but they certainly didn't wait unless it was in their own interests. It definitely wasn't expected.

My memory's not what it was, but wasn't Big Tex able to wait because he already had minutes in hand on Jan?

Yes. He waited because it was in his own interests (to make himself look good - he didn't wait for Zulle in 99). But many fans then thought it was expected (hence 'Did Ullrich wait? debate of 2003) and part of the 'rules'.

Thelittlesthobo

Keep it going guys. cant ad to this but the convo is very interesting.

BTW I started the thread :-)

afx237vi

What other unwritten rules are there? Local riders are allowed to ride ahead of the peloton to say hello to their family and have a sip of champagne. That's one of my favourites. Someone did it in one the early stages last week, although I forget who it was.

RichN95.

Thelittlesthobo wrote:

Keep it going guys. cant ad to this but the convo is very interesting.

BTW I started the thread :-)

As your enjoying this and the stories I will, as best I can, recall the 'Bernard at the bridge' that I referenced earlier (to one-up the guy who tried to patronise me).

1987. It's late on in the race - stage 19 (they had about 25 stages back then). Jean-Francois Bernard (now a journalist) has taken the yellow jersey with a storming performance in a TT up Mont Ventoux. He rides for Toshiba, a French team and is about 1.30 ahead. The other big French team are Systeme U, a team with an under strength Fignon and a highly placed Charly Mottet. There's no love lost between the two teams.

The day ends in a climb, but immediately prior to that there's first a feed zone and then a very narrow bridge. Systeme U plan to try and unsettle things (specifically Bernard) by riding fast through the feed zone and trying to split up the peloton at the bridge. Mottet tips off the highly placed Roche. Then at the feed zone Bernard punctures. Systeme U put the hammer down.

End result: Bernard loses 5 minutes and eventually finishes third. Roche wins. Mottet is fourth.

It's a controversial incident, but that's how it went down in the 80s.

rick_chasey

afx237vi wrote:

What other unwritten rules are there? Local riders are allowed to ride ahead of the peloton to say hello to their family and have a sip of champagne. That's one of my favourites. Someone did it in one the early stages last week, although I forget who it was.

Charteau wasn't it?

moray_gub

afx237vi wrote:

What other unwritten rules are there?

A rider going all out for race leadership or trying to gain time by working with another rider not contesting the sprint a good example of this was Vino and Tom Danielson in the Vuelta a few years back.

mr_poll

There is also the respect for past work/banking favours for the future.

An example of respect for past work recently was during the Giro. Apologies for the sketchy details but essentially an Astana rider was leading in a mountain stage after a break. Contador went on the attack to crucify his rivals, which worked. He joined up with the Astana rider (a former team collegue in the last couple of years) in the final 1km and to be honest could of danced past him to take the stage win but allowed the Astana domestique who had worked hard for him in previous Grand Tours to take (what I think) was his first ever stage win, as thanks for past work, despite the fact that they are now on rival teams.

P_Tucker

mr_poll wrote:

There is also the respect for past work/banking favours for the future.

An example of respect for past work recently was during the Giro. Apologies for the sketchy details but essentially an Astana rider was leading in a mountain stage after a break. Contador went on the attack to crucify his rivals, which worked. He joined up with the Astana rider (a former team collegue in the last couple of years) in the final 1km and to be honest could have danced past him to take the stage win but allowed the Astana domestique who had worked hard for him in previous Grand Tours to take (what I think) was his first ever stage win, as thanks for past work, despite the fact that they are now on rival teams.

It was Tiralongo. who was going to win (except potentially for Contador), and Contador put in a massive attack, rode up to him and "paced" him to the line, losing most of the time he'd gained with his attack (because Tiralongo was f**ked). So basically Contador did it simply to put a favour in the bank - nothing to do with the Giro GC.

Thelittlesthobo

That last story is rather nice. How do team managers take this kind of action? Considering they are probably under pressure for results etc.

rick_chasey

Thelittlesthobo wrote:

That last story is rather nice. How do team managers take this kind of action? Considering they are probably under pressure for results etc.

I don't know about team managers, but I remember during Lance's final Tour, he gifted Basso a stage and Basso then returned the favour.

There was a video of Basso's mechanic in the car during both Basso's win and his gift.

He was beyond happy when Basso won, I mean, board-line gibberish. When he saw Basso not contest the next stage, giving the victory to Armstrong, he was so disappointed. He was so excited Basso was in a stage winning opportunity, and the come down was pretty big.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Thelittlesthobo wrote:

That last story is rather nice. How do team managers take this kind of action? Considering they are probably under pressure for results etc.

I don't know about team managers, but I remember during Lance's final Tour, he gifted Basso a stage and Basso then returned the favour.

There was a video of Basso's mechanic in the car during both Basso's win and his gift.

He was beyond happy when Basso won, I mean, board-line gibberish. When he saw Basso not contest the next stage, giving the victory to Armstrong, he was so disappointed. He was so excited Basso was in a stage winning opportunity, and the come down was pretty big.

That whole episode is covered in the film Overcoming. Basso's mother had been diagnosed with cancer (it eventually killed her) and Basso talked to Armstrong on the phone about it. Part of that call was Armstrong saying to him 'follow me tomorrow', which lead to the two of them finishing together at the front.

ollyridesfirst

Just to go back to the poster who mentioned that Sky got smoked last year....

They actually won 22 races and got 50 podium spots....so not too bad for their first year (granted they have a lot of clout).


Another one to go back to (even though it has been done to death)....What is the deal with attacking the yellow jersey when that rider has a problem? I'm talking AS and AC last year when AS jumped the chain....Contador said he didn't see it, but i fail to believe this as Schleck had pretty much come to a stop as Contador rode past him (for rode past, replace with put the hammer down). Whatever unwritten rule there may be, this smacked me of very unsportsmanlike behavior!

LeicesterLad

OllyRidesFirst wrote:

Just to go back to the poster who mentioned that Sky got smoked last year....

They actually won 22 races and got 50 podium spots....so not too bad for their first year (granted they have a lot of clout).


Another one to go back to (even though it has been done to death)....What is the deal with attacking the yellow jersey when that rider has a problem? I'm talking AS and AC last year when AS jumped the chain....Contador said he didn't see it, but i fail to believe this as Schleck had pretty much come to a stop as Contador rode past him (for rode past, replace with put the hammer down). Whatever unwritten rule there may be, this smacked me of very unsportsmanlike behavior!

The Schlecks don't know how to change gear, Contador took advantage, it wasn't like Schleck was at a disadvantage unfairly, he f*cked his chain (for about the millionth time), tough Sh*t.

anonymousforobviousreason

That is pretty much fair comment there LeicesterLad, the Schleck's chains seems slippier than a wet noodle...it isn't that much better this year...although I am not sure what is going on with the wrenches in general, I think I have seen nearly every single rider getting a rubbing brake taken care of.

knedlicky

Thelittlesthobo wrote:

Keep it going guys. cant ad to this but the convo is very interesting.

One comical ‘unwritten rules’ incident happened in 1970 at the end of a hilly stage through the Vosges.

Teammates Agostinho and Frey had broken away 30 km from the finish, with Agostinho (the more established and more highly-regarded of the two) doing practically all the work, and therefore probably presuming he would take the stage. And by the ‘unwritten rules’, Frey, having ridden 30 km in A's slipstream, should of course have let Agostinho win.

When the line was in sight, though, Frey jumped. In order to stop him Agostinho then threw out his arm, part as barrier, part as physical assault. He didn’t hit Frey but made Frey hesitate long enough for Agostinho to cross the line first. The two teammates then argued when over the line.

The commissaires judged Agostinho’s behaviour incorrect and, irrespective of the ‘unwritten rules’, demoted Agostinho to 2nd place.

Monty Zoncolan

RowCycle wrote:

It's interesting with the use of team cars to get back to the group.

It seems that it's ok to get a hand back to the peloton drafting cars (maybe even the occasional hold) if you've been dropped due to crash/mechanical...

But if you've been dropped as you can't handle the pace this is a no no.

Yes, and also that the team cars seem to be quite content to tow riders from other teams, presumably as one of their riders may need the same assistance at a later point.

On allegiances, depending on who you ask(ed), Armstrong either did or didn't gift Pantani a mountain top stage win as a reward for putting time into the rest of the field to the Texan's advantage.