What Erik Zabel said re Cav

mr_goo

Erik Zabel quoted as saying that TdF organisers have configured the race so that Cavendish could not have a runaway win of the Green jersey. Claims that if was set with up hill finishes to suit the 'puncheurs' like Philippe Gilbert.

This does not bother me as I have bet on Gilbert to take the jersey anyway.

AnyhowI think the varying terraine of the Tour so far has offered exciting finishes in all stages. Probably best start to a tour in a long time.

Gingerflash

If they have done as Zabel claims, I certainly wouldn't criticise them.

The first week's stages were a lot more exciting than the HTC train delivering Cav at 55mph to an easy win day after day as we've seen in previous years.

What they did was impressive but not very entertaining or exciting in my view.

Pross

I'd love Cav to win green but feel that this tour has been balanced better than others. Cav can still take green and no-one can say it isn't deserved if he does but ultimately it is a jersey to reward consistently high placing and not a jersey for the best sprinter. Gilbert has been up there even when the stages ended in a bunch gallop. Arguably someone placing on a mixture of finishes is a more deserving winner.

clanton

In years gone by green jerseys have been won by the likes of Sean Kelly and Freddy Maertens - who weren't out and out pure sprinters but could also climb. The green jersey is a points jersey not a pure sprinter's jersey so I think the current configuration is a good one.

rebs

Points Jersey this year works well. If they kept the points to top 10 and even top 5 it woudl make it a much better battle.

My only gripe with the Points jersey is that even though it awards consistant placings which is great. It doesn't favour people who consistantly win stages. It's hard to think how more balanced it can be. Putting a stage win mutiplier i.e win 3 stages gain extra points would be good. But not sure whether it could make it too 1 sided for someone like Cav to win.

It does seem odd that for Cav to stand a better chance to win the Green. He would have to focus less on winning stages and more with getting over hills to remain in contention for points over more stages.

Gingerflash

If you win stages, isn't that reward enough?

The points jersey is for those who are usually up there but maybe not winning every other day.

derbygrimpeur

I disagree. The changes for the green jersey this year were specifically made because the best sprinter did not win the green jersey. By making these changes, surely the organisers are saying that it's a sprinters jersey, not a consistency jersey? But they've contradicted this with the route selection / parcours which doesn't favour outright sprinters.

Maybe they should come out and clarify the aims of the jersey. If it's a sprinters jersey, reduce points on hillier stages. If it's a consistency thing then leave as is.

It would be a shame though, because it means that sprinters have less to ride for. Stage wins are well and good, but a jersey in Paris is more special (I should imagine).

LangerDan

derbygrimpeur wrote:

IMaybe they should come out and clarify the aims of the jersey. If it's a sprinters jersey, reduce points on hillier stages. If it's a consistency thing then leave as is.

Are the hillier stage point allocations not already reduced?

Go back to having the red jersey, but award it solely on the basis of the top 3 or 5 over the finishing line of nominated sprint stages. No intermediate gallops.

Stop phannying around with the green jersey - award it for consistency across all types of terrain. Leave in 1-2 intermediate points "bonifications" per stage to encourage breakaways.

inkyfingers

I just said in another thread that I feel that Gilbert has to be a big favourite for green now. Personally I think that the green jersey battle has been better over the last couple of years than the GC battle. Despite the changes to the points system, the parcours this year has made it difficult for Cav and the other pure speed merchants but the biggest issue is that Gilbert has really targeted it, and to be honest he is simply a bit of a phenomenom. If he wasn't here then I think Cav would win as Petacchi has been poor, Garmin don't seem to be prioritising it (despite Thors high position) and I feel that Rojas will fade now that most of the stages left are either proper mountain stages or are pure sprinters stages.

It depends on whether you view the green jersey as a sprinters jersey or as a most consistent finishers jersey. In it's current form and on this parcours Gilbert is clearly in a class of his own.

Tom Butcher

You are right they did say they wanted green to be for the best sprinter but at the same time I think it's more exciting like this than having lots of obvious sprinters stages. Especially so this year as there are no real contenders to Cav's crown - I'm not saying he wins easily but there is no doubt who the fastest sprinter in the world is - if we had a real challenger to Cav then a series of showdowns in bunch sprints would be far more interesting.

rick_chasey

Nowhere in the rules does it say there needs to be a panflat stage in a GT to let the 'sprinters' have a chance.

derbygrimpeur

but isn't it rediculous that a sprinter as good as Cav is, having won 17(?) stages of the TdF, has not yet picked up the green jersey. At the end of his career do you think cycling fans (trying to put aside national bias) would think it fair that he'd not won that competition? Just because he's better than others isn't really a fair reason to change things to make it more difficult for him. Maybe other riders should work a bit harder on their weaknesses?

Maybe we should have a flatter TdF so that Contador doesn't win things so easily (or perhaps simply put obstacles in his way to make him fall off, seems to be working so far this year).

I'm a Cav fan so am biased in my thinking. However, I do think the first week was exciting, but perhaps the pendulum has swung too far the other way and maybe need to come back slightly for better balance.

airwise

The green jersey has defined the best and most consistent sprinter to reach Paris for many years.

Cavendish is without doubt the best and most consistent sprinter of his generation and yet he is possibly denied a place in history alongside his peers by a rule change designed to penalise him. Oh yeah. That's fair. Well Cavendish is British and the event is run by the French.

It's like the Yellow jersey being decided when every other stage is an individual time trial and there are no real mountains. How would the winner stack up against the winners of the past few decades?

Pross

The one change I would make would be to make the gap in points from winning the stage to second place a bit bigger.

inkyfingers

airwise wrote:

The green jersey has defined the best and most consistent sprinter to reach Paris for many years.

Cavendish is without doubt the best and most consistent sprinter of his generation and yet he is possibly denied a place in history alongside his peers by a rule change designed to penalise him. Oh yeah. That's fair. Well Cavendish is British and the event is run by the French.

It's like the Yellow jersey being decided when every other stage is an individual time trial and there are no real mountains. How would the winner stack up against the winners of the past few decades?

To be fair to the organisers it's not the points system that has harmed Cav's chances, it's the parcours and the presence of Gilbert in the race. I think most fans would applaud the more varied opening week's racing, it's just not done Cav any favours.

jonginge

inkyfingers wrote:

airwise wrote:

The green jersey has defined the best and most consistent sprinter to reach Paris for many years.

Cavendish is without doubt the best and most consistent sprinter of his generation and yet he is possibly denied a place in history alongside his peers by a rule change designed to penalise him. Oh yeah. That's fair. Well Cavendish is British and the event is run by the French.

It's like the Yellow jersey being decided when every other stage is an individual time trial and there are no real mountains. How would the winner stack up against the winners of the past few decades?

To be fair to the organisers it's not the points system that has harmed Cav's chances, it's the parcours and the presence of Gilbert in the race. I think most fans would applaud the more varied opening week's racing, it's just not done Cav any favours.

This. Reading some comments in the press it would seem Prudhomme wouldn't mind Cav winning green. Maybe Pescheux is not so keen

avoidingmyphd

inkyfingers wrote:

To be fair to the organisers it's not the points system that has harmed Cav's chances, it's the parcours and the presence of Gilbert in the race. I think most fans would applaud the more varied opening week's racing, it's just not done Cav any favours.

The organisers design the parcours as well as setting the points rules.

dougzz

Cav is the fastest, but depending on how you define consistent maybe not. He's frequently sat up when he can't win, that might be a consistent action, but it's not the way to build points.

TMR

Pross wrote:

The one change I would make would be to make the gap in points from winning the stage to second place a bit bigger.

I agree.

Make it 50 points for a win, 20 points for second place, 15 for third, 10 for fourth and 5 for fifth.

RichN95.

The change to the points system favours Cavendish as it rewards winning stages more.

The parcours (so far) has not, with more stages than usual with uphill bits near the end.

Currently Gilbert has a 60 point lead, but the stages and points on offer favour Cav from here on in. If stages 10,11,15 and 21 finish in a bunch sprint, he should win green. (Winning one of those stages is worth more than winning two of the non-Cav stages)

tarquin_foxglove

Mr Goo wrote:

Erik Zabel quoted as saying that TdF organisers have configured the race so that Cavendish could not have a runaway win of the Green jersey. Claims that if was set with up hill finishes to suit the 'puncheurs' like Philippe Gilbert.

Seems a bit rich coming from Zabel, as IIRC he stood on the green jersey podium in Paris more times than he won a stage in the Tour.

inkyfingers

tarquin_foxglove wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Erik Zabel quoted as saying that TdF organisers have configured the race so that Cavendish could not have a runaway win of the Green jersey. Claims that if was set with up hill finishes to suit the 'puncheurs' like Philippe Gilbert.

Seems a bit rich coming from Zabel, as IIRC he stood on the green jersey podium in Paris more times than he won a stage in the Tour.

Not true. He won green 6 times but won 12 stages. It is true however that he won green at least once without winning a single stage, but then again so did Sean Kelly.

tarquin_foxglove

inkyfingers wrote:

tarquin_foxglove wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Erik Zabel quoted as saying that TdF organisers have configured the race so that Cavendish could not have a runaway win of the Green jersey. Claims that if was set with up hill finishes to suit the 'puncheurs' like Philippe Gilbert.

Seems a bit rich coming from Zabel, as IIRC he stood on the green jersey podium in Paris more times than he won a stage in the Tour.

Not true. He won green 6 times but won 12 stages. It is true however that he won green at least once without winning a single stage, but then again so did Sean Kelly.

I've now checked & it's a tie, 12 times on the podium in Paris & 12 stage victories...

Green Jersey
1st 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001;
2nd 2002, 2006;
3rd 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008

andyp

The green jersey competition has a podium? :shock:

inkyfingers

tarquin_foxglove wrote:

inkyfingers wrote:

tarquin_foxglove wrote:

Mr Goo wrote:

Erik Zabel quoted as saying that TdF organisers have configured the race so that Cavendish could not have a runaway win of the Green jersey. Claims that if was set with up hill finishes to suit the 'puncheurs' like Philippe Gilbert.

Seems a bit rich coming from Zabel, as IIRC he stood on the green jersey podium in Paris more times than he won a stage in the Tour.

Not true. He won green 6 times but won 12 stages. It is true however that he won green at least once without winning a single stage, but then again so did Sean Kelly.

I've now checked & it's a tie, 12 times on the podium in Paris & 12 stage victories...

Green Jersey
1st 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001;
2nd 2002, 2006;
3rd 2003, 2004, 2007, 2008

I've never seen the guys that come second and third in the points classification stand on a podium in Paris, or anywhere else for that matter.

TMR

andyp wrote:

The green jersey competition has a podium? :shock:

Yes. It has one place

tarquin_foxglove

The Mad Rapper wrote:

andyp wrote:

The green jersey competition has a podium? :shock:

Yes. It has one place

Erik Zabel is the answer for Chris Boardman's 'always wondered why there are 2nd and 3rd places on the podium.'

P_Tucker

clanton wrote:

In years gone by green jerseys have been won by the likes of Sean Kelly and Freddy Maertens - who weren't out and out pure sprinters but could also climb. The green jersey is a points jersey not a pure sprinter's jersey so I think the current configuration is a good one.

+1. Stage wins are enough of a reward for pure sprinters IMHO, its great to have a battle of the puncheurs. Sadly, Gilbert is so good at the moment I can't even think of anyone else who would be classified as such.