Deep section rims and crashes.

motdoc

I have a suspicion that the proliferation of deep section rims in the peleton is increasing the number of crashes. These guys ride so close so fast that when a gust catches the rim they don't have the space neccesary and everyone goes over. e.g. the crash that took out Wiggins, no real need, just a crosswind? Also alu rims break better.

What does everyone else think? Am I talking rubbish?

graeme_s-2

Do you mean "break better", or "brake better"?

cogidubnus

Sean Kelly doesnt think its an issue. Though its hard to know. Though from my view Vino and VdB crashed in trees so a cross wind wouldn't have made a difference. When Wiggins crashed it was a tail wind that had speeded up the peleton I think

avoidingmyphd

see
http://cyclocosm.com/2011/07/has-the-20 ... dangerous/

emadden

motdoc wrote:

I have a suspicion that the proliferation of deep section rims in the peloton is increasing the number of crashes. These guys ride so close so fast that when a gust catches the rim they don't have the space neccesary and everyone goes over. e.g. the crash that took out Wiggins, no real need, just a crosswind? Also alu rims break better.

What does everyone else think? Am I talking rubbish?

To a degree you have a point, but more so in theory as most of the riders this year are on 50mm or lower. Gusts also affect the 50mm rims, but the problem is greatest in the 80mm + sizes.. which is why you see some guys with only 50 or 46mm on front and deeper 80 or 90 on the back. Campag have brought out 80mm Bora's but not all the campag sponsored guys are riding them..

Also, wind, even gusts, is less of a problem when riding in a closely packed bunch. It will be the guys at the fringes/head who will feel the effects of the wind.

As for brakes, these days many brands of brakes pads designed for carbon can as good as those for aluminium

andrewjoseph

I think the wiggins crash may have been partly due to the peleton coming into a more sheltered area after being used to sidewinds for a while. the side pressure suddenly stopped and people drifted over.

andyrr

Some carbon rims even with carbon-specific provide less predictable braking than with ali rims :
I've used Swiss-stop yellow pads on a HED front wheel and in the wet they have been a nightmare, nothing, nothing, nothing - grab. The rimn doesn't have a special braking surface treatment which probably is a big influence. I recall using the wheel in a road race when it was wet and I was so, so wary of braking bacause of this behaviour. Wheel is used for TTs now and the braking is fine given that use.
I'm sure the pro's who use these wheels all the time are much better at modulating braking but on say a damp decent where gentle, slight & predictable braking is needed these could have a negative effect.

rick_chasey

avoidingmyphd wrote:

see
http://cyclocosm.com/2011/07/has-the-20 ... dangerous/

As I've said elsewhere, those stats don't show who is being knocked out.

I can't remember a time when more team leaders have been taken out through crashes.

cougie

Wasnt the Vino crash just a slippy road ? Hoogerland nearly came a cropper by himself.

cogidubnus

Rick Chasey wrote:

avoidingmyphd wrote:

see
http://cyclocosm.com/2011/07/has-the-20 ... dangerous/

As I've said elsewhere, those stats don't show who is being knocked out.

I can't remember a time when more team leaders have been taken out through crashes.

Do we think its because there is now a trend to have a least 5 of your team with the leader? Thus causing the front of the peleton becoming an even more cramped battle ground

Monty Dog

Reading Ben Swift's blog, he stated it was due to all the GC contenders and their support riders trying to keep to the front of the bunch which is both speeding up the race and forming a more 'compact' bunch which means that one small mistake is massively amplified and leads to carnage.

verylonglegs

Monty Dog wrote:

Reading Ben Swift's blog, he stated it was due to all the GC contenders and their support riders trying to keep to the front of the bunch which is both speeding up the race and forming a more 'compact' bunch which means that one small mistake is massively amplified and leads to carnage.

Yes, it's a self-fufilling prophecy,they all feel the need to be at the front to avoid crashes and suddenly you've got far too many trying to outdo each other for space and funnily enough you get the crashes you are trying to avoid..it's crazy.

RowCycle

I thought I heard somewhere that there were two main reasons they reckon for the number of crashes this year:
* More riders trying to ride at the front. Whereas in the past it would be the team leader +1 (or maybe 2), now team leaders are surrounded by almost all their team. They want to be near the front, but not actually on the front doing the work. More people trying to fit in a smaller space means more likelyhood of crashes.
* The deep rim carbon wheels mean the sidewinds have more of an effect. Combined with the pont above it results in more crashes.

rick_chasey

RowCycle wrote:

I thought I heard somewhere that there were two main reasons they reckon for the number of crashes this year:
* More riders trying to ride at the front. Whereas in the past it would be the team leader +1 (or maybe 2), now team leaders are surrounded by almost all their team. They want to be near the front, but not actually on the front doing the work. More people trying to fit in a smaller space means more likelyhood of crashes.
.

This sounds plausible and I have heard the same from people who should know.

I haven't heard anything about the material being used. You'd think if it was deep rims, riders would stop using them.

prawny

Rick Chasey wrote:

RowCycle wrote:

I thought I heard somewhere that there were two main reasons they reckon for the number of crashes this year:
* More riders trying to ride at the front. Whereas in the past it would be the team leader +1 (or maybe 2), now team leaders are surrounded by almost all their team. They want to be near the front, but not actually on the front doing the work. More people trying to fit in a smaller space means more likelyhood of crashes.
.

This sounds plausible and I have heard the same from people who should know.

I haven't heard anything about the material being used. You'd think if it was deep rims, riders would stop using them.

But if they dont crash they might save 40 seconds over 100kms.... :?

shinyhelmut

You'd think if it was deep rims, riders would stop using them.

That depends who their wheel sponsor is.

rick_chasey

ShinyHelmut wrote:

You'd think if it was deep rims, riders would stop using them.

That depends who their wheel sponsor is.

Most wheel sponsors do different depth rims.

Tom Butcher

WIggins in his post hospital interview let slip that a lot of riders were being told via radios to get up to the front in case of a split - it's been said before but warning riders via a radio of a possible dangerous road or possible split actually makes things more dangerous not less.

Plus as it's proven using a handsfree mobile in a car is distracting why wouldn't that apply to using radios whilst riding in a group of 150+ cyclists ?

Carbon rims can't help - I don't think the braking is as good as aluminium even with specific pads.

Modern roads have a lot more road furniture on them - that has to account for some incidents.

I think as much as anything though it's just that in modern times the racing is more full on from the gun - I wasn't actually watching pro cycling back in the 70s or even 80s but by all accounts there was more time when the peloton was just rolling along - again whether radios have played a part in making the racing more active I don't know - I suspect opponents of them will say yes and supporters no.

avoidingmyphd

maybe it's just natural statistical variation. if you put 200 bike riders in a pack and they ride round for 30000km, some stretches of 3000 are going to have more crashes than others, and some of those crashes are going to feature more team leaders than others.
we need the mountains to give us some cycling to talk about.

shinyhelmut

Rick Chasey wrote:

ShinyHelmut wrote:

You'd think if it was deep rims, riders would stop using them.

That depends who their wheel sponsor is.

Most wheel sponsors do different depth rims.

True but a 50mm rim means the manufacturer can put bigger stickers on than a 20mm rim, or am I being overly cynical?

rick_chasey

ShinyHelmut wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

ShinyHelmut wrote:

You'd think if it was deep rims, riders would stop using them.

That depends who their wheel sponsor is.

Most wheel sponsors do different depth rims.

True but a 50mm rim means the manufacturer can put bigger stickers on than a 20mm rim, or am I being overly cynical?

Too cynical.

prawny

Rick Chasey wrote:

ShinyHelmut wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

ShinyHelmut wrote:

You'd think if it was deep rims, riders would stop using them.

That depends who their wheel sponsor is.

Most wheel sponsors do different depth rims.

True but a 50mm rim means the manufacturer can put bigger stickers on than a 20mm rim, or am I being overly cynical?

Too cynical.

I hadn't thought of that but I reckon that's probably not far off the mark.