Headset Problem?
furry.
Posts: 46
I'm after a little advice. The other week I had a new set of forks fitted to my bike at my LBS and they also replaced the headset as the bearings were corroded. I took the bike out for a blast round the local trails and during the post ride clean found that one of the headset seals had split and that the headset itself was loose. I went back to the shop to get a replacment and whilst they did not have one in stock were going to look at getting one. They tighted up the headset and suggested that it may just be the forks bedding into the crown race that may have caused the loosening of the headset and perhaps the split of the seal. I was out again this weekend with the headset tightenend but no seal (LBS said would be ok as packed with grease) and again after the ride I have found the headset to be coming loose. I dont believe the headset was very expensive (say £20ish) and am wondering if it is just not suitable for the kind of riding that I'm doing (trails, rocky bridleways etc.)?
I'd appreciate any thoughts before going back to the shop today as they will look to either replace the seal or replace the headset, I suspect with something similar. Perhaps I should ask them to fit a more expensive one and if so any recommendations?
I'd appreciate any thoughts before going back to the shop today as they will look to either replace the seal or replace the headset, I suspect with something similar. Perhaps I should ask them to fit a more expensive one and if so any recommendations?
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Do you have enough clearance at the top of the stem? i.e. a gap of 3 mm + from the top of the stem to the top of the steerer. Even the cheapest of headsets should remain tight, and the concept of the crown race bedding in just says they didn't fit it on the forks properly. Most problems with loose headsets are caused by either the races not being pressed in properly (which means everything is at angles to each other, not totally seated) or there is not enough preload - caused by a lack of clearance at the top as described. As each headset has a different depth you need to adjust the amount of spacers above and below the stem to compensate.A Flock of Birds
+ some other bikes.0 -
Cheers for the quick reply Ben, I'm not sure what clearance I have at the top of the stem, I basically left it in the capable hand of my LBS. I'll mention it when I take my bike in later.0
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If you don't have the clearance you can still pre-load the headset, its just harder to do.
IME cheap headsets are a false economy, I noticed Merlin were doing good deals on Cane Creek S3 at the mo and while not the best one on the market its a good kit in the 30 quid range. Ideally you want Stainless sealed races (S6-8) as they last longer, but standard steel is ok (e.g. the S3).
The other problem can be the frame cups as if they are not perfectly matched to the headset can cause a problem. TBH if the LBS is fitting, I would expect them to replace the cups too.0 -
diy wrote:If you don't have the clearance you can still pre-load the headset, its just harder to do.
How would you do it effectively using only the parts supplied?A Flock of Birds
+ some other bikes.0 -
Also, possible that they put the bearings in the wrong way round - they are not always the same top and bottom.A Flock of Birds
+ some other bikes.0 -
It's also possible that it's exactly what the LBS said it is. Sometimes a crown-race won't sit entriely flush after fitting and the topcap needs to be tightened again after the first ride.
For me, a headset is a headset. Some are better quality than others, but I don't really believe that any would be 'unsuitable' for mountain-biking.0 -
warpcow wrote:It's also possible that it's exactly what the LBS said it is. Sometimes a crown-race won't sit entriely flush after fitting and the topcap needs to be tightened again after the first ride.
I disagree - when you fit a crown race there is some fairly hefty percusive maintenance going on, and its on the fork in a static manner (e.g. the crown of the fork is supported so the suspension is negated). The short, sharp, individual forces exerted by the rocket (The tool most shops use) is far greater than any one force exerted through riding (unless you crash/land excessively heavily)
When riding the bike, the suspension takes the bite out of the compression, resulting in much reduced effect on the race. If the shop has fitted the crown race properly, it won't settle at all. When fitting a brand new set up it is possible that the star fangled nut will bed in, but this isn't an issue as once the stem is tightened, everything is static. My advice is to always get a split crown race headset - this negates any possibility of a bad fit.A Flock of Birds
+ some other bikes.0 -
benpinnick wrote:warpcow wrote:It's also possible that it's exactly what the LBS said it is. Sometimes a crown-race won't sit entriely flush after fitting and the topcap needs to be tightened again after the first ride.
I disagree - when you fit a crown race there is some fairly hefty percusive maintenance going on, and its on the fork in a static manner (e.g. the crown of the fork is supported so the suspension is negated). The short, sharp, individual forces exerted by the rocket (The tool most shops use) is far greater than any one force exerted through riding (unless you crash/land excessively heavily)
When riding the bike, the suspension takes the bite out of the compression, resulting in much reduced effect on the race. If the shop has fitted the crown race properly, it won't settle at all. When fitting a brand new set up it is possible that the star fangled nut will bed in, but this isn't an issue as once the stem is tightened, everything is static. My advice is to always get a split crown race headset - this negates any possibility of a bad fit.
I agree, but that assumes the shop did it correctly in the first place. I don't quite get what they mean by it splitting a seal though. It does sound like something wasn't right during the installation.0 -
Sometimes they need a couple of readjustments. Do it yourself, takes 30 seconds. If it keeps coming loose, there is a problem.0
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benpinnick wrote:diy wrote:If you don't have the clearance you can still pre-load the headset, its just harder to do.
How would you do it effectively using only the parts supplied?
two ways:
1 get a mate to pre-load the set by pushing down hard on the the bars while you clamp up the stem.
2 add a spacer to the top above the stem to lift the cap up.0 -
diy wrote:benpinnick wrote:diy wrote:If you don't have the clearance you can still pre-load the headset, its just harder to do.
How would you do it effectively using only the parts supplied?
two ways:
1 get a mate to pre-load the set by pushing down hard on the the bars while you clamp up the stem.
2 add a spacer to the top above the stem to lift the cap up.
I wouldnt recommend #1 to anyone, but #2 is exactly what you should do - I was assuming that spare spacers aren't available, hence the issue.A Flock of Birds
+ some other bikes.0 -
warpcow wrote:I agree, but that assumes the shop did it correctly in the first place. I don't quite get what they mean by it splitting a seal though. It does sound like something wasn't right during the installation.
Splitting the seal is easy to do - they are generally free floating and move about until the headset is fully preloaded. If you are not paying attention then they can move during tightening, and be crushed by the headset once its tight.A Flock of Birds
+ some other bikes.0 -
Cheers for the responses guys. I've no problem with tightening the headset a couple of times, but the LBS asked for the bike back as if they cant get the seal they will replace the headset. I'd just thought I'd ask the forum for their views, in particular regarding whether my relatively cheap headset should be ok or should I be looking at paying a bit more to get somehting tougher. I guess the answer is you get what you pay for, but even a cheapish headset should be adequate. As for installation issues I'll leave that with my LBS, they are good guys and have no problem with me bringing the bike back. I'll report back with any interesting conclusions.0
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Headsets are really simple cups, bearings, races and shims, Yes they need a giggle and the right height of spacers but so long as they are correctly assembled thre shouldn't be any problems.
You say it is currently packed with grease, so I'll asume it isn't cartridge bearings which is a shame as if you are going to the effort of changing an headset it is worth making it easier to maintian and better sealed. It sounds like a sloppy installation of a less than ideal part, I've done a fewheadsets and changed forks and removing play from the headset after fitting forks takes some movement and allignment rather than just tightening the top cap bolt.-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_
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Why are MTB economics; spend twice as much as you intended, but only half as much as you wish you could afford? :roll:0 -
]benpinnick wrote:
I wouldnt recommend #1 to anyone, but #2 is exactly what you should do - I was assuming that spare spacers aren't available, hence the issue.
If it works what is the problem?0 -
But it doesn't, pushing down on the bars with the stem bolts loose is likely to tilt the stem (front end down - the longer the stem the worse it will be) and end up with you doing it up loose, the top cap acts parallel to the steerer so pulls it down correctly!
SimonCurrently riding a Whyte T130C, X0 drivetrain, Magura Trail brakes converted to mixed wheel size (homebuilt wheels) with 140mm Fox 34 Rhythm and RP23 suspension. 12.2Kg.0 -
No argument that pre-tensioning with the top cap is the correct way to go, but the discussion was on the basis that there was not a sufficient gap on the top tube to effect pre-tensioning hence my suggestion of a spacer or manual compression.
When a mate pulled his star nut out through over tensioning we managed a perfectly effective repair by pushing down on the bars, there simply isn't that much of a gap on a half decent stem. Plus you would correct the angle as you tightened the stem bolts.0
