MY front brake is also usless

Time.to.ride

Hi, having seen a similar post i wonder if i can attain some help with a similar prob?

I just had my juicey 3 front brake bled as it was nearly touching the grip without much effort, the rear brake is still very stiff and needs practicaly zero effort to apply although it does squeak slightly when you move the bike very slightly, my LBS reason for both probs is as follows: front had air and needed bleeding, the rear THEY said was still at factory setting hence being so stiff as apparently they come that way, and once bled you cannot get them quite the same.
So i had the front bled (as i said) and it made no bloody diferance! i can still nearly pul it to touch the grip, the mechanic says that Juicey 3 brakes ARE ment to feel tht way, now im no expert but even to me it feels very soft although i do have grip when applied, and second is the comment about the rear brake correct

Help appreciated!

estampida

so eliminate all unknowns

swap pads over from front and rear - make sure the pads are not weird or summit

cleaned the disks and all that jazz

if air is getting into the system its a connection somewhere (hoses or cylinder's)

if you are not getting the pressure to disc, either sticky slave cylinders, if it was leaking you would see find fluid on pads / pistons or the master cylinder seal is leaking, so oil is returning to resi rather than going down the hose to caliper

I would buy a bleed kit as you will save cash big time, and check youtube for a tutorial on servicing.

Time.to.ride

Done, Done, not happening, and nope

Anything else

Rigga

It sounds to me like your LBS haven't bled it properly. I would take it back and tell them its no better or buy a bleed kit and do it yourself. An avid bleed kit can be got for 35.99 or a cheapo one off ebay for about 11quid.
Im having similar problems myself with back brake, my lbs have bled it and it is better but still not brilliant. So if it doesn't improve over next couple of weeks im gonna do it myself.

Time.to.ride

I do have one mate but the last time i tried to bleed a brake it was a disaster lol, i cant do it

Rigga

By the way how much did your LBS charge? Mine was 8quid but Evans wanted 15.
I would deffo take it back as its not right and could be dangerous.Tell them you want it bleeding again! Surely they could tell it wasn't right when they handed it back?

Rigga

By the way the mechanic in your LBS is talking bobbins as i have avid juicy 3's also and my front brake is very good and not soft or spongy at all. Nearly throws me over the bars! My back isn't too good though but that was my fault for getting air into the system and will be sorted soon enough.

Time.to.ride

alot more than tht thts for sure lol £22.50

Time.to.ride

Rigga have you had yours bled yet though mate? i think this factory set that they come like is pos true as they do use equipment that gives higher pressure to begin with

Time.to.ride

But i am well pissed off that there appears to be no more pressure than before i gave it them

Tonyp_iom

Basically here we go! lol

Dot brake fluid which Avid brakes take is hydroscopic and therefore expands, so over time your brakes will get harder and eventually lock the caliper to the disc until fluid is released.

Now, it will be very hard to get your front brake the same as your rear one for this reason, however, I wouldn't believe what your LBS is saying about "Factory Settings".

A proper bleed through with the Avid Bleed Kit and Dot 5.1 should give you a nice firm lever and not into the bars.

A common issue is sometimes peoples lever reaches are different on brakes and therefore gives a different feel, measure how far each tip of the levers are from the bars if the back one is further away from the backs adjust the front one to the same reach.

A cheat of a way to get it firmer, is the bleed the caliper with the pistons partly out, then you are technically "overfilling" the system with fluid and will give a firmer feel.

Rigga

Time.to.ride wrote:

Rigga have you had yours bled yet though mate? i think this factory set that they come like is pos true as they do use equipment that gives higher pressure to begin with

Yes mate had the back one bled and whilst it is a lot better its not as good as when i got the bike and certainly not as good as the front one which hasn't been bled yet so you maybe rightabout not being able to get as good as they are from the factory?

Rigga

Tonyp_iom wrote:

Basically here we go! lol

Dot brake fluid which Avid brakes take is hydroscopic and therefore expands, so over time your brakes will get harder and eventually lock the caliper to the disc until fluid is released.

Now, it will be very hard to get your front brake the same as your rear one for this reason, however, I wouldn't believe what your LBS is saying about "Factory Settings".

A proper bleed through with the Avid Bleed Kit and Dot 5.1 should give you a nice firm lever and not into the bars.

A common issue is sometimes peoples lever reaches are different on brakes and therefore gives a different feel, measure how far each tip of the levers are from the bars if the back one is further away from the backs adjust the front one to the same reach.

A cheat of a way to get it firmer, is the bleed the caliper with the pistons partly out, then you are technically "overfilling" the system with fluid and will give a firmer feel.

Hi is it essential to get an Avid Bleed kit and not one of the cheaper one's from ebay??
The cheap oned do have good feedback but ive also heard the Avid ones
are much better but they are #expensive!

andermt

I commented on another thread about how I was having an issue with the rear brake on my Anthem which would feel okay-ish but not as good as it had been after getting it back from the 'branded' store at Rutland and then after a ride the brake would be pants, straight to the grip.

They bled it twice and it was no better, they then sent it to SRAM who sent it back claiming no fault found, bled again again and re-fitted and again it felt okay-ish and the following day was rubbish.

So ordered an Avid kit, some new pads and discs having decided to sort it all out.

Considering the rear pads were replaced by this 'large' bike store and I've only ridden it round a dry Rutland water outer loop once since they re-fitted it I was disgusted by the state of the pads, they MUST have been this bad the last time they rebuilt the brake and they said nothing.


So I used the Avid bleed kit, VERY easy to use if you just follow the detailed instructions, and immediately the brake was better than it has been since before the original problem occurred soon after the Jolly Green Bike store fitted the above new pads.

Left the bike overnight and rode it today at Fineshade/Wakerly and it was faultless and back to what it was all last year and the beginning of this year.

The annoying thing is the bike shop have given great customer service, I've never been charged for the re-bleeds and they even lent me another brake while they sent mine off to SRAM, I really can't fault them for the way they have dealt with me it just seems they don't know how to bleed an Avid Elixer 5 brake!

So I'd definitely recommend getting the Avid kit, very easy to use and works very well.

Rigga

Ok thanks for that andermt although your new awesome brakes may also be down to new disc and pads but hey ho at least its sorted.


One thing that did piss me off when the LBS did mine was they only used dot 4 fluid rather than dot 5.1, i mentioned it to them but they said it'd be fine? I wonder how much of a difference it would make with 5.1 fluid in?

Rigga

WEE WEE???

Damn you swear filter!!

andermt

Definitely down to getting the brakes bled properly, as an engineer I like to trace through problems in single steps so I know what the actual problem was, I fitted the pads 1st and it made no difference to the lever feel, then bled the brakes and it's all fine (I didn't change the disc in the end).

Not sure why they would use DOT4, Avid kit comes with DOT 5.1. I'd personally only use DOT 5.1.

Tonyp_iom

Rigga wrote:

Tonyp_iom wrote:

Basically here we go! lol

Dot brake fluid which Avid brakes take is hydroscopic and therefore expands, so over time your brakes will get harder and eventually lock the caliper to the disc until fluid is released.

Now, it will be very hard to get your front brake the same as your rear one for this reason, however, I wouldn't believe what your LBS is saying about "Factory Settings".

A proper bleed through with the Avid Bleed Kit and Dot 5.1 should give you a nice firm lever and not into the bars.

A common issue is sometimes peoples lever reaches are different on brakes and therefore gives a different feel, measure how far each tip of the levers are from the bars if the back one is further away from the backs adjust the front one to the same reach.

A cheat of a way to get it firmer, is the bleed the caliper with the pistons partly out, then you are technically "overfilling" the system with fluid and will give a firmer feel.

Hi is it essential to get an Avid Bleed kit and not one of the cheaper one's from ebay??
The cheap oned do have good feedback but ive also heard the Avid ones
are much better but they are #expensive!

The avid ones are better amazing, we use the professional ones and just lush for a bleed kit, I don't know about the ebay ones... downsides to getting ebay ones is if it doesn't do the job right then you get an avid one its costing even more :S

Time.to.ride

I dont find Avid that easy to bleed i must just not get it !

I might just buy the mechanicals bloody avids are to complicated

shoddy

'Dot brake fluid which Avid brakes take is hydroscopic and therefore expands, so over time your brakes will get harder and eventually lock the caliper to the disc until fluid is released.'

are you sure this statement is correct?
Hydroscopic means that the fluid absorbs water. I have Avid J3s. Been using them for years and have never released any fluid. They have never got harder over time.

madmole

Brake fluid is hydroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the air, which makes the brakes Spongy not hard, as water IS compressibke compared to hydrolic fluid. But will only be an issue in open systems like car brakes which is why you should change the fluid each year. On a bike the fluid should last 3-4 years between replacements, unless you boil it up

I hope they drained out all the old 5.1 fluid before they used DOT 4 to top up. Although not catastrophic, 4 and 5.1 are not a good mix, and will feel really soft

The Jucy 3's are a horrible design to bleed and even when done properly are still soft and the lever travel too much. Basically they got rid of proper bleed nipples and valves to save costs and weight, but means you NEED 2 syringes and have to do a positive pressure bleed

The Avid kit is a bit more than the cheapies but worth it as it does the job well and comes with fluid, also works on other makes of brakes

Easiest brakes to bleed are the old hope Mini mono/4/6's, just like a car and you can get them to lock with 1mm of lever movement if you want

The Rookie

As the avid brakes run a sealed system, I'd love to know if Tony can tell us where this water is getting in........

madmole wrote:

Brake fluid is hydroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the air, which makes the brakes Spongy not hard, as water IS compressable

water is no more compressable than hydraulic fluid, suggest you check facts before making an ass of yourself next time! However it has a lower boiling point (obviously) and boiling causes major issues.

We have two bikes, both run 2 lots of Juicy's, I've never had a problem bleeding one apart from the one that came totally empty, so did a fill, left for a day and then a bleed (a LOT came out) left another day and anopther bleed, now its perfect, in manufacture they almost certainly use a vacuum system to remove all air and then suck in the fluid, so perfectly bled every time!

Simon

Time.to.ride

Brake is sorted it needed a PROPER BLEED !!!! NOT the crappy excuse the lbs mechanic gave for the princely price of £22.50 today i hopped on a train to Amersham to a shop called Dee's Cycles good staff up there too !! So much so i will pay the £9 train fare to get there, i recieved priority treatment they serviced BOTH brakes sorted the front problem AND set both new mechs up to work flawlessly all for wait for it......... (DRUM ROLL !!!! ) £70
That is what i call a bargain peeps! ! !

Thanks to Dan and Nick at Dee's Cycles, top job boys.

Tonyp_iom

The Beginner wrote:

As the avid brakes run a sealed system, I'd love to know if Tony can tell us where this water is getting in........

madmole wrote:

Brake fluid is hydroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the air, which makes the brakes Spongy not hard, as water IS compressable

water is no more compressable than hydraulic fluid, suggest you check facts before making an ass of yourself next time! However it has a lower boiling point (obviously) and boiling causes major issues.

We have two bikes, both run 2 lots of Juicy's, I've never had a problem bleeding one apart from the one that came totally empty, so did a fill, left for a day and then a bleed (a LOT came out) left another day and anopther bleed, now its perfect, in manufacture they almost certainly use a vacuum system to remove all air and then suck in the fluid, so perfectly bled every time!



Simon

You are correct, but the what you will find is people like to use old brake fluid they have lying around and also normal dot4 which is more hydroscopic. If dot brake fluid is left open for large amounts off time it absourbes air which as you said takes its water from.

When people boil there brakes you will find this also causes slight lexpansion. As you clearly stated water will make brakes feel spongy. But brake fluid does expand slightly.

Hence the issue with giant MPH 1 brakes. When left for large amounts of time the brakes lockon and require bleeding.

Glad you got it sort Timetoride

101_North

Time.to.ride wrote:

Brake is sorted it needed a PROPER BLEED !!!! NOT the crappy excuse the lbs mechanic gave for the princely price of £22.50 today i hopped on a train to Amersham to a shop called Dee's Cycles good staff up there too !! So much so i will pay the £9 train fare to get there, i recieved priority treatment they serviced BOTH brakes sorted the front problem AND set both new mechs up to work flawlessly all for wait for it......... (DRUM ROLL !!!! ) £70
That is what i call a bargain peeps! ! !

Thanks to Dan and Nick at Dee's Cycles, top job boys.

I guess if you're happy and your brakes are fixed that's the main thing but 70 quid!!!!! Someone saw you coming :shock:

101

bails87

Tonyp_iom wrote:

The Beginner wrote:

As the avid brakes run a sealed system, I'd love to know if Tony can tell us where this water is getting in........

madmole wrote:

Brake fluid is hydroscopic, which means it absorbs water from the air, which makes the brakes Spongy not hard, as water IS compressable

water is no more compressable than hydraulic fluid, suggest you check facts before making an ass of yourself next time! However it has a lower boiling point (obviously) and boiling causes major issues.

We have two bikes, both run 2 lots of Juicy's, I've never had a problem bleeding one apart from the one that came totally empty, so did a fill, left for a day and then a bleed (a LOT came out) left another day and anopther bleed, now its perfect, in manufacture they almost certainly use a vacuum system to remove all air and then suck in the fluid, so perfectly bled every time!



Simon

You are correct, but the what you will find is people like to use old brake fluid they have lying around and also normal dot4 which is more hydroscopic. If dot brake fluid is left open for large amounts off time it absourbes air which as you said takes its water from.

What?

When people boil there brakes you will find this also causes slight lexpansion. As you clearly stated water will make brakes feel spongy. But brake fluid does expand slightly.

No he didn't, he said the exact opposite.

Time.to.ride

Guys i didnt create this topic for you all to argue lol STOP !!!!

supersonic

To clear a few things up. DOT fluids used for these brakes are hygroscopic. But in a well sealed brake system, if fresh fluid is used, the ingress of air and or water is very slow.

When water does get in the sytem, it has a lower boiling point. So the feel of the brake lever will change when the water boils in the system. The reservoir will take some of the expanded brake fluid up and water, but you will still have now compressible gas in there. This creates the spongey feel and excessive lever travel.

Time.to.ride

Supersonic can you close this topic bud, as prob is now solved cheers.